Diana Pastora Carson:
This episode is proudly sponsored by Ability Magazine, the leading magazine for health, disability, and human potential that strives to shatter myths and stereotypes that surround disabilities.Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. I'm your host, Diana Pastora Carson. Here you'll find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K through 12 communities. This show serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Now let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. And welcome to Dr. Paula Kluth. Oh my gosh, welcome Paula! I'm so happy to see you!
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Hi, Diana. I know we've been working on this for a little while so thank you for your patience and your enthusiasm. I have to say, before we even turned on the record that I was saying to you that it's an honor and it's so fun to talk to you because I know that you speak my language. And in terms of like full on inclusive commitment. And so it's, it's really nice to talk to somebody that I can learn so much from. So thank you for having me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow. Well, thank you Paula. Well, you happen to be my favorite author, mentor, speaker. You have so many resources, so many publications. You've been consistent throughout the years. I love your work. I bring you up whenever I speak. I share your books with people. I hold them up and I say, if you don't have this book, you have to get it. My favorite is, "You're Going to Love this Kid." I have the second edition. I know you have a third edition now that I need to get my hands on. I'm so excited about that. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for making this happen. I know you have a really busy schedule and I appreciate your time and I know that my listeners are gonna really love this episode. So I want you to just give a little bio. So I was going to read a bio, but I just, just tell us who you are, what your passion is, what you're working on real quick, and then we'll get started.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, my favorite thing on my website is that my bowling average is in the one thirties. I always think that's important. 'because If you're born in Wisconsin, like people are really good at bowling here. And so that is one thing I feature that people might not know about me, . I really, really love classroom libraries and organizing them. Those are two kind of weird things about me. But, the more typical kinds of things in a bio is, I always think like...You know, I'm sure you feel the same, Diana. I think the most important identity I have is, you know, as an educator. So I was a, you know, a school teacher. I wasa Special Ed teacher and taught, I always say "Jack of all trades." You know, pretty much I taught. I started my career in high school, and then I taught elementary school and I worked as kind of an inclusion facilitator. And I worked as sort of like a coach for a while.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Certainly as a co-teacher. You know, I've worked with adults a little bit as well. So kind of a, you know, a little bit of everything. I, you know, I feel like in, you know, I was K12 certified, so that was kind of encouraged, but I think that's really shaped, you know, my advocacy since then. So I left the classroom, I did my doctorate, and then I was at Syracuse University. I was an academic for a while, and after I got married, I came back to the Midwest and had my kids and I would've stayed at Syracuse forever, but I we wanted to get closer to our family. So, I just ended up working on my own. And I've been doing in-service work most of my career now. I've done that longer than anything. So I work with families, I'll work with school districts, I'll work with, you know, individual non-profit groups and things like that. But all around basically the same messaging you have Diana, all around inclusion. So even though I've written about, people will say, oh, you, like, you do a lot with UDL or co-teaching, but everything is in that hub of inclusion. It all serves, you know, the work of inclusion. So that's how I see my work is really just learning some of these other skills and competencies so that we can keep that ball rolling around supporting, you know, all students in our classrooms.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you. I...Just hearing you say all that, I knew all that, but it makes me even more appreciative that you are here with us today. Thank you again. So I often talk about Joaquin, my brother, who, you know, being my why. And, now my why has extended to all those students I've had over the years, and continue to have in my life who don't quite fit into a pre-written narrative of what's "normal" or what's "valuable" or what's "deemed worthy to be included." Can you share what your why is, why did you go this path? What has sparked this in you?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, I will, I'll go a little bit backwards on that question. You know, you brought up something where, you know, just kind of talking in general about what's my path and you know, I remember in particular in my Master's program that I went to school at The University of Wisconsin for, (I have to give a plug to Bucky Badger, University of Wisconsin.) But I was in a, with a very, very, you know, strong philosophy and identity around inclusive practices. And this is back in the day. I mean, this is in the eighties and the early nineties, and there was a federal grant there, and Dr. Lou Brown was my mentor and, and Dr. Anne Donnellan. And like, there was a lot of conversation and support too, to think about that. But when I was doing graduate work elsewhere, I just remember thinking like, this is not how teachers are being taught, and this conversation isn't sort of the undercurrent of our backbone.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
How, whatever metaphor you want to use. I was meeting teachers who didn't know what I was talking about when I was talking about inclusion. So that actually led me, you know, to go onto my PhD and to start teaching teachers when I was quite young because I thought where, you know, I guess I grew up in a bubble. I guess I came to become a teacher in a bubble. That I became very passionate about, which I never thought when I a teacher, I'll go and teach teachers. And then the reason I got into any of this was because, and I love being asked this question because I feel like it's such a powerful message for all of us as educators. The reason that I got really invested was because when I was a senior in high school, for whatever reason, kids with extensive support needs were all of a sudden brought into my high school, like no conversation with anybody.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
We didn't know any of these kids. And I just remember being like really interested and I always tell the story. I just started to, 'cause somebody asked me recently, and I was like, oh, I don't talk about this a lot. But I remember being in the cafeteria and one of my friends saying, stop staring. Because I was just, I was, I was just interested. I didn't know anybody with Down syndrome. I didn't have any friends with cerebral palsy or anything like that. So my life was really changed by their teacher because she was aware , thank goodness of the need for doing something different. And she was, she was on her own too. She was in this big high school. She didn't have any colleagues. She just started grabbing kids and saying, who wants to like...very organically... Who wants to come down to my classroom?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Who wants to go out to lunch together? Who wants to take this kid? And it wasn't about really a buddies program. And I always like say that. She was super savvy. It was really like individual. So she would just say, you have a car, right? And I say, yeah, I have a car. Like, oh, well why don't you take Allison to Burger King? You know? And I'm like, oh, okay. Does Allison's mother even , it's the eighties. There's no permission slips, I guess. But like, it was just very, she wasn't just saying like, let's just bring a bunch of kids together. She was really, really on it, you know, and let's, you know, so and so could probably use a ride to the basketball game. And she just started talking to kids and she just had, I always say the biggest influence on me of any teacher I ever had was a teacher who was not supposed to be my teacher, Mary Durgener.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I love her. We stayed in contact years later and you know, she knows this. I mean, she knows what an impact. And I say if you teach high school, and even if you don't, I say, remember all teachers teach all kids and we can be having conversations and, and the hidden curriculum is about how we are interacting with students with and without disabilities. How we are facilitating, you know, people always say, what about friendships? You can't force friendship. Well guess what? You can do a lot to bring kids together. And then friendship may very well follow. So we can engineer a lot of, we can engineer togetherness, we can engineer connection, we can engineer shared activity. So I, I guess I'm way off on a tangent here, but I just feel really passionately about Mary, what she did for me. And I owe my entire career to these first friends, Jerry, Allison, shout out Scott and getting to know these kids who were, you know... Just really open themselves in a scary new environment.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
You know, and so I think I went into school, I can't remember what my major was, and Mary contacted me in school and she said, have you switched to Special Ed yet? And I said, yes, . I didn't want to be a teacher because I thought, oh, in those days, you know, girls have... They're, you know, teachers, nurses...and I didn't want to like do what was expected, sort of, but I love being a teacher! So I don't know why I was being like that., But I thought, oh, they think they could predict my moves. I'm going to show them. But that only lasted six months. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow. That's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know that, Paula.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yeah. Well that's Mary. Thank you, Mary.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That's great. That's great. Well, she'll definitely get a link.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
,
Diana Pastora Carson:
I just wanna share something that you brought up. You know, that was the eighties and I remember we're roughly the same age. And in the eighties, Joaquin was in a non-public school. He never really had an opportunity to be in a typical high school. And one day I said, I just wanna take Joaquin to school. And my parents let me keep him out of school. And between my sister, and me, and my boyfriend at the time, we rotated classrooms for Joaquin. We asked our teachers could we bring Joaquin to school? And Joaquin came to school for a day and he got to be in all six periods with us at different places. And he had an extraordinary day. It was, I have a picture.And he even went to the parenting class that I was in, and we got to share together to this class of students who were taking the parenting class.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
This is an incredible story that I don't know. And I know I happen to know, that you are writing a book and this better be in the book because what a story about young people with vision. I bet you had a lot of friends that had a lot of positive reactions to this as well. And I think kids are curious. They just, they just wanna know that they're doing it right. Yeah. And so I think a lot of times we think it's the kids, and the kids will struggle, but we know that's not true. We know that kids are sometimes like the very best asset that we have. That's amazing, Diana.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, I thank you for, you know, reminding me, I forgot about it until you brought up Mary Durgener, you know, being such a pioneer for you and inspiring you to develop this passion that you had. So that's great. That's awesome. Yeah, I will make sure that's in my book, .
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. So let's go back to this idea of inclusion. How would you define it? And, and then once you define it, can it work for anyone? Is it for everyone? Because I hear people talking about the people with extensive support needs, you know, and the idea that they might be taking away from others. Just, what's your take on the definition of inclusion? And if it's for everyone and if it is, then how can we make it work?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
There's a lot of questions in there, but I just wanna start with one of the last, which is, I think so much of this is that we are so limited, not only by our vision, but in some ways we're limited by, you know, our resources. We're limited by our own background and education experience. Like if, if you've seen that, then it sort of seems possible in some different ways. But you know, of course when we think about it, a definition of inclusion, it's not very flowery. But that the idea that kids with and without disabilities are educated in, you know, general education classrooms and environments together. That we have natural proportions. I mean, those kinds of boxes have to be checked. And a lot of times even it starts right there aboutabout asking the question of, is it...can it work?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Are we violating natural proportions? You know, I see in a lot of co-taught classrooms, for example, that we don't have 15 or 20% of kids with disabilities or less, that we have 40% of kids with disabilities. That's your answer right there. And then of course, inclusion also means that we are providing supports. You know, I love this quote from a mom I knew and she said that they included her child finally. And she said, but it was like they invited us to a party, but they didn't give us a fork. So if we put kids in classrooms and there's no fork, if they don't have the supports that they need, that's not about inclusion not working. You know, sometimes social studies doesn't work because we're not responding to kids in a way that engages them, or we don't have the correct materials, or teachers don't get what they need.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And so we don't say social studies doesn't work. We have to then look at, you know, what, what are those conditions that will create the best possible experience. So I think it's sometimes like that, like what does this range of supports look like and is that available? And how do those supports then, you know, we always say kids with disabilities, especially I think kids with extensive support needs, are often a catalyst for our creativity. So, you know, you often see that when we make a few changes for Joaquin or you know, any other child that that ends up spinning off into, well is that a change that we could make for many? And that kind of goes into this idea of being limited by, again, our vision and being limited by resources and tradition. I'm so struck by, and I know this is a hard thing to say because I know people are gonna say, well yeah, but I have that limitation.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
But I just, I think it's important to say it. When we sometimes, you know...,When we start to see schools that are maybe being redesigned or... I've been in a school recently where they had just had a renovation and I was struck by them showing me this cool new furniture that was in the hallway and then how they could sort of slide this panel out so that there could be a small group in one area. And I thought to myself, you know, this was really fancy. Of course most public schools don't have this. But it just, the first thing that occurred to me was, it was really neat that they had some small group space, and it had all been designed with the new ways of learning in mind. And I thought, you know, how limited are we just by architecture sometimes? Like it's not really that inclusion can't work, it's that we have really traditional-looking spaces.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
You know, sometimes the ways in which weteach curriculum instruction is designed is we're, we're at, we're at a loss for figuring what that looks like. Especially something that's whole class might be really hard for certain kinds of kids. But I think things like, you know, if we can't change the architecture, but even things like looking at how technology can support and service, I was in a classroom when all the kids were kind of doing a little bit something different as they were engaging with a story. So some kids were like actually putting the headphones on and they were watching a video of the story. Someone's reading them a story. And then some kids were like, partner reading, and some kids are reading on their own and there was a little, you know, kidney table in the hallway and I thought like, so we didn't have this right?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
We didn't have like that kind of technology where we can leverage that or things like Newsela where kids can be reading at their own level. You know, this is into that larger conversation of UDL, but I also think we sometimes are limited by what we've seen, what we know, what is. And so that puts knowing the benefits that we know about inclusion, that puts us in a position of having to be the inventor and having to commit to, if we know this is best for kids, how do we even sometimes in the most imperfect circumstances embrace this idea that yes..We are sometimes...It's not really that the kids can't receive these services in such a way, but we've got these barriers and just like we use universal design for learning to push past barriers in our instruction, we have to do the same as adults and say, we see these barriers and over, under, around, or through find a way or make a way. Because the outcomes are that strong.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Because you know that that's true. You know that. Yes, because that's your why. You understand that. And so when you understand why it's so important, the outcomes are so important, then you are gonna do everything in your power. You... It's gonna spark that creativity. Yes.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And we've been... And teachers have been doing this forever without the fancy spaces It, I guess I was just saying that as an observation too. That what looks like a child problem is oftentimes, it's a problem of the environment. It's... And sometimes that means it's a problem that we have to tackle with our own innovation. So like, what, we can't have this, can it look this way? How can we lean into these new tools that we have? How are other folks doing this? Can we turn to kids, and do kids have a solution as well? We talked about that earlier, so...So I feel like we sometimes give up five minutes before the miracle happens.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. And you know, yes. And I think then I've heard of stories where people give up. I've heard of self-advocates who say, it just wasn't for me, you know, and I think about it. I wish I could have been a fly on a wall to see, well, what actually was done to support your needs, your academic needs, but also your social needs, and your mental health needs at that time that you were needing it the most? What could we have done differently? What could your support network have done differently? And so...
Dr. Paula Kluth:
A hundred percent. I mean, I just had somebody say to me at a workshop, and I think it was an autistic woman who said, well, what about the argument that schools are really ableist and that, you know, it's kind of like square peg, round hole? And I just didn't disagree with her. I mean she, I think had even been a teacher for a little bit, if I'm remembering right. And I said, I won't disagree with you at all, but if that is true and has been true, (and she was maybe closer to our age, so she probably experienced that at a time where maybe there were fewer tools as well). But if that's true, then there's a lot of kids that will need us to have a different response, and not just kids with identified needs. And so we have so many kids who have, you know, more so than even when we were in the classroom... That more kids that have these individualized needs for some response, even if it's not a disability. We're seeing kids with high anxiety.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
We're seeing kids who may have a 504, but not an IEP. So we're just seeing a lot of different things in the classroom that require us to think more about how can classrooms respond to uniqueness? And so that's, if that's true that one or two kids are saying, this isn't for me, then we have to go back to the drawing board and say, well how do we customize as much as we can? Even if we have, you know, a classroom of 30 kids. And teachers I think are finding a lot of solutions, and have been doing so for a number of years. That they find that when they discover that solution for one child, they often find that that is a solution for many and it is a way forward that creates a better experience. So whether that's collaboration and co-teaching, whether that's working more closely with therapists, whether that's, you know, finding more individualization through station teaching or you know, centers or letting kids, you know, project-based instruction, or even small moments where kids, you know, again, uses of assistive technology, or use of technology more generally, or you know, having kids as agents.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I think we see self-determination as more of a goal in education more broadly. Teachers already do a lot to that end. And that's the kind of stuff that we need to be leaning into, and saying that's really great stuff in general, and it is the roadmap for inclusion.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice. So when you consult with a school district, or you're doing professional development, what are some of the common barriers or objections that you encounter and how do you respond to those?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, I think a lot of it is: it's really hard. You know, I think Cheryl Jorgensen, my colleague, you know, she would always say it's like the hardest thing... I'm gonna say this wrong. Do you know this quote Diana? The hardest thing to do, but it's the easiest thing to mess up. Basically , we know how hard it's to be a classroom teacher today. I mean, and it can't underline today enough. But I always say, and I'm not trying to be cute when I say this, but I say that's where we actually do need to lean into our partnerships and make those connections. So, you know, I do a lot of work with co-teaching and even if it's not co-teaching, it's like I just, you know, I say it is lonely to be there. To be by yourself. So even if you're not co-teaching, but leaning on the partnerships themselves.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, I mean this perfect segue. So what is co-teaching? How would you summarize what the co-teaching experience is and how it affects the success of inclusionary practices, both for the students but also for the administrators and the teachers?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
One element that gets I think, confused a little bit is that, you know, it has to be two certified teachers and they are co-planning and they are co-constructing for that same group of students, right? So there's a lot of lovely things that a teacher and a paraprofessional can do together. And there's a lot of things that they can do together that meet the needs of a lot of kids really beautifully. But that's not co-teaching. From a legal standpoint, that one teacher is responsible You know, all by themselves for that instructional elements. And has to do that planning, that creative part on their own, technically. So it doesn't mean that there can't be collaborative moments there, but that we wouldn't call that co-teaching. It's also not co-teaching... You know, sometimes we'll see people who job share and they've worked it out like you teach the morning, I teach the afternoon. Not co-teaching, right?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
So if you're not co-instructing in these large segments of time for that shared group,.. And also if you're planning for your group, and I'm pulling mine to the back table, that's not co-teaching either. It has to meet those, those criteria. You know, the thing, I'll just give a short plug for why I am passionate about it. I don't think it's the only way to include kids at all. But if you can, there's ways to bring those teachers together. In many instances they're already in the room. And I always say that, that even if you can't bell-to-bell co-teach, finding those moments, those segments, it's Friday mornings, you know, for a period of time, or maybe it's Mondays and Tuesdays, I can be there for half the period. Finding those kinds of patterns in your collaboration can be really helpful, simply because it's on-the-job professional development.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I can actually see what you know, and watch you engage around a behavior or something. Like, let's say somebody's really struggling and you have strategies I don't have. So just seeing you handle that right in front of me, like helps me to get those skills. And I'm watching you, Diana, I bet you were great at this. Dynamically making this anchor chart with kids as there's all kinds of energy in the classroom. Like, I didn't know how to do that when I came. I was like, how do you do all those things at once? But from watching you say, can I try that? So let's kind of grow our skills together. And that's why I say a hundred percent of the adults in the school are there for a hundred percent of the kids. That goes for a therapist that goes for, even if I can't co-teach with my speech pathologist, you know, every single morning in kindergarten, like, do you have any, is there any time that we could do that?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And if we always use a station method on Mondays, could you sometimes pop into those? And if you're not there, we could still develop that lesson without you. But when you're there, we would love to have you; you know, teaching a small lesson or something. So anytime you're patterning, that's really great, even if you can't, you know, collaborate full-time and co-teach full-time. And that's kind of a message I send a lot because as a Special Ed teacher, I was never bell-to-bell co-teaching. I was never with anybody all day. I was in lots of spaces. So I did a lot of co-teaching, I call it "on the fly," and just kind of working in spaces to dialogue about what mental math looked like, or maybe it was whole class lessons in social studies, and we would just sort of collaborate for awhile.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And I would come in, we'd co-teach a bit, and if we sort of felt like we got it down, then I might float out of there and go somewhere else. But every teacher needs to have those skills because even if we're not labeling our work as such, we have to know how to help each other. I even think emotionally it can be so useful too, because we've all cried in the bathroom at school. If you haven't cried in the bathroom at school, where do you teach? I wanna know. But we've all been there. And so having somebody where we can sort of just say, how would you have handled this? And I even think the opposite of that. I think the best thing about collaboration and inclusive schools is for somebody to turn to you and say, wow, that was incredible. Like, when we're by ourselves, there's no audience and like nobody to say, oh my gosh, that vocabulary lesson! Woo! . So I always say like, it should be as much as unburdening yourself. It should be people admiring your work, you know? And that is a way, you know, it's like, this is hard. And so somebody that's reinforcing to you to say like, you really, that was, wow, I've never seen anybody interact with that child in that way. That I've learned something here.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh,
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Powerful.
Diana Pastora Carson:
And just, and imagine how powerful that is for the long-term outcomes we want for that child, too. To have that...
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yes, absolutely.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Sort of experience. But it, yeah,, from a teacher, an educator perspective, to have somebody there just reinforce , like you said, good practices and then to be able to observe. I've learned so much from really extraordinary teachers that I've had the opportunity to be in their classroom with them. And I'm like, wow, I'm going to use that. That's good. That's good stuff. I feel like I have... I feel like I was, I was a good teacher when I was in the classroom, you know. I wasn't the best teacher I'd ever seen, but I was a good teacher. But everything that I did that was good, I learned from my colleagues who were extraordinary and, and I just, you know...You create this package of the good things that you see and you bring them together, whether it was my master teachers, or mentor teachers, or my colleagues that I worked side-by-side with. We didn't do a co-teaching model at the time, but we certainly had opportunities. I love that you brought up that, you know, sometimes it's on the fly. And we did that, we did do that.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I think for most teachers it's on the fly. That's one of the big misunderstandings is that: I don't co-teach. So this doesn't relate to me. But it actually does because we are constantly, even if it's in small moments. And the other thing beside that, we get from any kind... And again, it doesn't have to be bell-to-bell, but when we're collaborating and if there's a teacher listening that doesn't do this, this one strategy, I always say, if nothing else, do some role-sharing every now and then, even if it's something simple. Like let's just say I teach middle school and I, say, listen, I can't be in here full-time. I know I float in a lot, and I'm doing my checks, but is there any time of the week where I can take (let's say I'm Special Ed) that I can actually be at the helm?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Maybe it's leading a brain break, you know as they come in from lunch and every time, like that's something that I do so that the General Ed teacher can come back and just observe kids, or catch kids one by one. Most General Education teachers do not get to observe their kids, and they don't have a lot of space and time to grab that individual kid. And most Special Education teachers won't get the opportunity to kind of see from the helm (if they're not co-teaching, I should say), from the helm, like how their students interacting and responding to them as the lead in that moment. And that can be helpful too. And I also think it's really good for the dignity of kids with disabilities or kids receiving any services. As sometimes kids have that misconception, like, that's your teacher. Or when I taught elementary, it was like, is that your mom?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh wow.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
You know, little kids like who is like that lady with you? So I think it's good for all of us to kind of mix up those roles because it frees us both to see the classroom. And then I can see, oh, it is hard to help him access his augmentative communication when you're at the helm, let me make this one adjustment. Or I'm noticing now in a whole class that this student really did attempt to use their assistive tech. I think I could maybe, maybe if I move his seat, that will be helpful. So it just, it's just a nice small way to get a little more insight and then we can start to expand that role-sharing even in the smallest ways.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wonderful. So what is this co-teaching kickoff that I keep hearing about?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well yeah, so that's, that's actually something I started. I mean, a lot of people say, oh, you're like the co-teaching person. But really, I always say everything I do is to serve that goal of inclusion. But so many of the questions came up were these pragmatics, like what, how do you do it? Like what does it look like? So I wrote a book with Julie Causton, Dr. Julie Causton on co-teaching called 30 Days to the Co-Taught Classroom. And so they're like really interested in that. So people were asking, make a video saying that one thing that you said about that co-teaching on the fly? And then I was meeting all kinds of great co-teachers. I said, you know, I'm just gonna launch this series of videos so that people can kind of just learn kind of, they have a companion all year long.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
We have like a version where you can just subscribe, I think through Halloween. It's in the fall. And then, so that one's pretty much over. But then the other, the other option is you can have it all year long. And so that was sort of just the idea of you could carry these teachers, and facilitators, and coaches, and administrators in your little pocket of your phone. And anytime you're like, now what are those tips for planning? Or what did that high school math teacher say? So there's like 22 sessions. They're from 20 minutes long to over an hour, and just all kinds of different sessions. One is on co-teaching on the fly I think this year. Solots of different ones. But just because I always feel like with co-teaching, we keep going back to, well here's the structures and here's how you plan.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, there's lots more to know, you know?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
How do you co-teach when you're not inside of a structure? How do you work with your multilingual teacher? How about your enrichment folk? What about really young children? Are there different considerations there? And so I just wanted folks to just hear from, you know... I have videos, but of course there's lots of other talented folks who are talking UDL and co-teaching, you know, referenced in a lot of these. For a lot of teachers part that we're talking about that co-teaching isn't just about, you know, co-teachers that are, in name... I think can be validating because they're saying, yeah, I am doing a lot of that. And I guess I'm co-teaching too. And I think that's important to own because you should get credit for all those conversations we're having. And again, a lot of folks that aren't in the classroom for a lot of minutes, they might be co-planning. Well that's definitely part of the picture.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I love "30 Days to the Co-Taught Classroom" and I've actually given it to a couple of administrators... Hoping to foster some interest in that as something for their school. But I know there are many people who are using it consistently. And so where can people find the videos that you were just mentioning?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Kind of the go-to, for everything I do, Diana is just my website, which is inclusionrules.com, like R-U-L-E-S, inclusion rules.com. The information's always on that front page while the kickoff's running through May. There's also a few sample videos on my YouTube channel right now. So if you just put in "Paula Kluth" or "Inclusion Rules YouTube," I put in a few like videos so you can see a little sample of folks talking. Just to kind of see like from the horse's mouth, like what are people talking about in this event and what are some just kind of, you know, I think there's one on paraprofessionals in the collaborative classroom. So some good stuff there. But in general, if people are trying to contact me or they have a question about our work today, inclusionrules.com Is kind of a one-stop-shop.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Thank you. Awesome. So your books you have a lot of books now. You're the "Energizer Bunny" and a prolific author making a huge difference for, as you said, educators and paraprofessionals when it comes to inclusion. I've always referred to, You're Going to Love this Kid as my "inclusion Bible," and I flaunt it all the time, But I also have a bookshelf with many more of your resources that I share with my educator friends. You're always in action, you're teaching, you're writing. What are some of your own personal favorites, and do you have any other upcoming projects that you wanna share?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Teachers, we love books. We love books. We love resources like that. And I'm like that too. It's, give me a framework for that. Give me an example. You know, give me an image of something. You know, I don't necessarily have favorites because it's like picking my favorite child, but I I always say I do try to write in a way that is accessible for teachers. So I also love, "You're Going to Love This Kid," and I do feel it is sort of the big resource. And I always try to say on podcasts, or speaking or anywhere, please, please, if you are interested in that book in particular, that is the one book I know for sure is at public libraries because it's been out the longest. So you can always check your public library. You don't have to buy every book that you hear about because all teachers have a book problem like I do. And you can't afford every book, because otherwise we would all be broke. So I love public libraries. Check your library and then the third edition is yellow, so you'll know. And if they don't have that one, ask them to get the third edition. Check there first because then you'll know if you wanna buy it, or if you just needed to look at it,
Diana Pastora Carson:
You want to buy it because you want to write in it. And you wanna highlight every page.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
We hope so. But that really is kind of a little bit of everything. But some of the other ones that I think are really nice for the busiest professional, I'm just in the midst of a rewrite on UDL, Universal Design for Learning. So UDL Daily and that sort of one idea every day, broken down like every single consideration. We used to call checkpoints, but now the model's updated so we call them considerations. But every single element of that framework, I sort of give examples. If you find the UDL framework, it's a little overwhelming or trying to digest it. I really always try to be mindful. Like when text maps came out and it's a hundred different photographs of curricular adaptations that you can make. Kind of like a DIY. I mean, my husband said, oh, like first you had this huge textbook, "You Know, You're Going to Love This Kid" and then just give them the whale.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
That was like 20 ideas. It was a little smaller, you know, and then, you know, all the way down. He said, I think your next book is gonna be a pop-up book. Maybe . Because just kept trying to make it... It's like I said, you have no idea how busy teachers are. They... It's too much. You know, it has to be easy. So even like, "Don't We Already Do Inclusion?" You know, it's like one little idea on a page. And those are all written with that in mind. You can't do it all, but could you try this? And so,that's kind of just like if you, we have the big "bible" as you said, Diana; we've got, "You're Going to Love This Kid." But there's also resources for those that are saying, Hey, I'd like to share some ideas with my staff. "Don't We Already Do inclusion?" It's a little bit easier to access, say if we're gonna spend a day just doing a little bit of a study and having a steering committee set some goals. So hopefully something for everybody.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. And if people just want very quick ideas for how to make an activity more accessible to all students. The title "Talking Sticks..."
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yes. I can't remember them all either. And I gave them too cute of names. So there's two "Tutor Scripts to Talking Sticks, why did I do this? I can't say it either. And then the second one, they're exactly the same "From Text Maps to Memory Caps." Yes. I hate myself for this because I can't say them, and I can't remember the names. So there are two. It's like basically, you know, first book is like a lot of ideas with different adaptations and the second book is just a hundred more. So there's no difference except for we just kept making ideas. ,
Diana Pastora Carson:
They're great, very quick resources. I love them. So I'll make sure to put all of your books in the show so that people can find them easily.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Good, because we can't say them, but if somebody else can find them...
Diana Pastora Carson:
I know there's just too many, too many. Okay. It's your first year as a teacher. What is the most important thing that you need to know?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, I,...You know, I think the most important thing you need to know is, well, first of all, give yourself grace. It's such a hard job, but give yourself grace. And you know, what teachers do in a day is just mind bending. And most people, I think during the pandemic, people saw what teachers did. And I thought, well, at first I said, everyone's gonna see what teachers do. Everyone's gonna wanna become a teacher. No. Everyone saw what teachers did and said, wow, teachers, you know, now...
Diana Pastora Carson:
Let's run away. Run away.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yeah. I mean somewhat. It's like, wow, that's amazing what teachers do. So first of all, everything starts with grace for yourself. And the second is, in those hard days, those connections that you're making with kids, the listening that you're doing with kids, and their families, is everything. Diana, you and I know that when, (and I'm thinking about kids with disabilities here)...When we are getting to know families. When we are eliciting their voices. When we are, you know, understanding their vision and trying to absorb, that is everything. I mean, we know teachers...And, and you know, you can name these teachers right now with Joaquin, right? The teachers that you, you know, you know who you are, who do that. Not only can that be the first place to start, and the first thing to know is you don't have to know everything.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Those are the resources. Patrick, my colleague Patrick Schwarz says, "families are the gold standard." So that's what you need to know is like the listening is everything. And the learning from our families and our kids, and those connections that you're making, and those relationships that to you might sometimes seem like... Well, yeah, teaching is what I do, and then I also have these relationships. That is everything. And so starting there, you don't have to know everything. That will be your guide. And you are probably remembered by more families for that than, you know. And I'm just talking to those teachers because they're the ones listening to your podcast of course. And that they already probably have that orientation. But there's so many teachers I know that they just, that willingness and that wanting to just be the student in a sense and, and to learn from those families and those kids. They just have no idea the power in that and what they've done to be supportive, just even in that act and putting that that way of being forward.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, so good. So good. Thank you. So are you ready for some fun rapid fire questions?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh my gosh. I am. People probably think I know these, but I don't know what the questions are. So
Diana Pastora Carson:
Coffee or tea? Paula.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, all coffee. I mean, I love tea, but coffee. And let me answer coffee from the time I wake up until the time I go to bed, and that's why I don't sleep. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay, well now I have something to aspire to. Oh my goodness. That's terrible. Terrible. Oh, do you put, do you drink it black, or coffee and cream?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh it doesn't matter if you give me coffee. I would... It could be... There could be a pot roast in there and I would drink it. ,
Diana Pastora Carson:
I see you in a whole new light. Okay. Soup or salad?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Salad. Oh, so we just had this conversation yesterday. I live in Wisconsin, so like soup-- and that I would have it every night.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay, good.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
It is my favorite food.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. And no coffee is in that soup. I hope. .
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I mean, there could... I would take it that way, if that was offered. It hasn't been offered
Diana Pastora Carson:
. Okay. Dog or cat?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, I love all animals, but I have two rescue dogs, Millie and Lacey. Andlisten, . I thought I had aan empty nest, but I just realized it's far from empty. . . So it's like a whole new, and now it's just like...Now the whole life is dogs now . But I, if someone gave me...I love cats, too. So don't be mad at me cat people. I love cats. ,
Diana Pastora Carson:
That reminds me, we didn't mention your... What's your children's book?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, Coaster.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Coaster. You have a children's book about it.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And you know, that actually came out of going to the shelter because we fostered a lot too. So I have a children's book about a dog named Coaster who has wheels. And that came out of two things. And you, and by the way, you don't have to buy that book either. You can go on YouTube and you can see me reading it, and if you want to share it with your kindergartner or first graders, you don't have to buy the book because I read the whole book and I own the copyright. So, you know, you can make a video of you reading the book and that is all fine with me. But it is a book about a puppy with wheels. And this actually came out of a conversation I had at the shelter,. All the dogs don't get adopted, (and of course dogs with disabilities, because a lot of people can't afford medications, whatever it is).
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And they're not sure how to care for some of the animals and things like that. So then I had this conversation with a friend of mine saying like, oh my gosh. And my friend uses a wheelchair and was saying, yeah, they have to know that, you know, that some people don't know how wheels are so wonderful. You know, and that's like, oh my gosh! Wheels are wonderful. You know? And so Coaster's thing is, wheels are wonderful. And so the whole story is Coaster's not getting adopted (because that is part of our shelter situation). And at the end, his dream comes true at the end. But you'll have to go and see the video to see the dream.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Aw.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well...Cliffhanger, Diana. It's a cliffhanger. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Well so much for rapid fire, but at least we are getting in some more.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yes
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Alright. Audio books or paper books?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I'm almost completely audio now. Thank you, accessible technologies.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Yes. Favorite music artist or music genre?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, I love all music. I'm gonna say Tom Petty.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Okay.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And then, can I say a second? My second would be they have nothing in common, but I'm super obsessed with Kool & the Gang .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Really?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Yes. I've seen them in concert like 10 times.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Just don't ask questions. It's like... I know those are two really kind of like they don't have a lot in common, but those are like my two favorites.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Gosh, we have to go out for ladies night.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Right?! , Thank you for understanding. No one else will understand that reference, but we will, Diana.
Diana Pastora Carson:
In our age bracket, they might.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
In our age bracket, they might. Yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Favorite sport?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, to play or to watch? Or it doesn't matter.
Diana Pastora Carson:
You pick.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Okay. I'm a huge baseball... I played softball, but I am a huge Milwaukee Brewers fan. I go to tons of games and I love to play, I love everything. I'll watch any team. I love it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow. I thought you were gonna say bowling for some reason. ,
Dr. Paula Kluth:
If it was... Yeah, that's right. It's... I don't wanna brag. I've already bragged once about my 138, point average
Diana Pastora Carson:
Favorite Netflix binge.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh my gosh. I, any documentary, so. And I'm, I especially, they're making a lot of retro ones now, like about the eighties. So like the space shuttle, or I'll love something on like women in politics, any, like... I love long-form documentaries and I... I mean I could, if they made a documentary that went on for three years, I'd be in. I would stay with it . Love it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Awesome. I'm gonna have to look into those. Favorite...Well you already talked about your favorite teacher. Well do you have another favorite teacher that you had growing up?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, I was gonna say, this is a bit of a cheat, but I'm gonna say that our shared friend Dr. Anne Donnellan and Dr. Lou Brown. I did not know really what inclusion was when I got to college. I cannot imagine my life without the influence of these two mentors in my undergraduate years, and into graduate school and their contribution to the literature... I mean Anne in particular, I wouldn't have a career, and understanding autism or any of that without Anne just completely unraveling everything that I thought that I knew. And replacing it not with what she thought she knew, but with great questions.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, yes.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Asking the great questions.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. We could do a whole episode on Dr. Anne Donnellan.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Indeed.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, same for me. She helped me unpack and unravel so many previous understandings and ask the best questions. Thank you. Glad I asked that. Your favorite place to be?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, I've just moved to Wisconsin and I keep walking around thinking I am so happy to be home. This is where I'm from. I'm from Wisconsin. I've been gone for many, many decades. I'm so happy to be home. So I'm gonna say right here where I am.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice. I love that. I'm happy for you.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I love it. I know not only are the Brewers are very close to me. I'm by this beautiful water and it like, you know, we have many... We have thousands of lakes here. And the fish fry is incredible.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That's great. I didn't know the fish fry was incredible there. huge.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
It's huge.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Alright. Favorite memory as a classroom teacher or doing what you're doing now?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Oh, you know, I would say I... This is, I won't go into this long story, but I, I will tell a short version of it. It's a story I sometimes tell when I'm presenting. There was a little boy when I was teaching elementary school, a colleague wanted to assess him and, and she was so passionate (and she's so lovely). She was trying to get him to tell the story of The Very Hungry Caterpillar. I never worked with a child like this before. And he didn't have a lot of reliable communication and he had a kind of a little messy little body. And so she was trying to like, you know, show him lots of different stories and do a little author study and she had figurines. I kept saying, it's not that he doesn't know it, it's this expression is part of the need here.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And she had a little felt board and she was trying to make him act out the, you know... Use the felt board to show what he eats first, and what he eats like... And she just, it just wasn't working. And I think she kind of gave up and she thought it's lovely having this little boy in my classroom, but I just thought I was gonna have that breakthrough moment. About two and a half months later, we found this little boy during a library session, not where he was supposed to be, in her supply closet almost all the way to the back. And he was lining up all of the fruits on the felt board.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
And I just told this story; I just did the UDL conference. And I hadn't thought about that story in years and it just, All of the sudden I said, I wanna tell that story. I said, isn't that just like these kids we know? We wanna sit them down and say, hey, we wanna assess you now. And it's like the kid says, you know, now isn't good for me, but how about two and a half months from now, when no one's watching in the back of the closet? Will that work for you?
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love it...
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Right? But like the idea of, we don't know, what we don't know. And for a lot of our students, we have to just accept this idea that, Anne Donnellan repetition, right? "The Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
I love that teacher for everything she had poured in, and her name's Kathy; and I just love this kid for reinforcing that way of thinking.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that. Thank you for sharing that Dr. Paula Kluth, how again, can people find you? Where can they find you, reach out to you?
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Well, obviously they know now they can come to Wisconsin because that's where I am. I thank you for asking Diana; it's so sweet of you promoting some of these things. So it's www.InclusionRules.com. We have, you know, it's nice to find the programs and things like that, but there's a lot of free stuff there, right? There's free videos, there's free downloads, there's articles, and we're about to put a bunch of forms that you can use in your pursuit of some of these goals. So things that you might be able to, like if you're a facilitator, things that you can walk around and look for in a co-teaching situation. There's a new doc that we're putting up where, you know, encouraging people to just pick one UDL sort of idea to focus on. I have a little form where it's kind of like a meeting form for a paraprofessional and teacher. I've just finished; I've got 20 forms that we're gonna make available just to make people's lives a little bit easier. And to point them more towards some of these inclusive objectives or goals that they might have. Please come and visit.
Diana Pastora Carson:
What a great service to the community of educators out here. Thank you so much.
Dr. Paula Kluth:
Thanks, Diana. Thanks for having me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Beyond Awareness Disability Awareness That Matters. I love providing this podcast to support you in your passionate inclusion work in your school or community, and I hope you'll help me to help others by promoting it far and wide. You can also proactively support this podcast in the following ways: subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, or Spotify, or wherever you listen to this podcast. It really means the world to me to have your support in this way, as it increases the chances of others getting to hear the messages presented in each episode. For more valuable resources, you can visit my website: DianaPastoraCarson.com where you'll find links to my priceless free resource, How to Talk About Disability with Kids, as well as my blog, my digital Beyond Awareness Basics course, my books: the beautifully illustrated children's book, Ed Roberts-Champion of Disability Rights, as well as the comprehensive resource for anyone wanting to do disability awareness work, my book, Beyond Awareness-Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities. But if you are super busy like me, and you just need something quick, easy, and convenient, that will get to the point, when it comes to creating disability awareness opportunities, you should definitely get your hands on my handy tri-fold laminated Beyond Disability Awareness Educators Guide, published by NPR, Inc. Again, all this can be found at DianaPastoraCarson.com. You can also follow me, Diana, on Instagram @DianaPastoraCarson and at facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music provided courtesy of my son, Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
