Diana Pastora Carson:
Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today. Before we get started, I wanna let you know about a fabulous resource available to you. If you wanna lead disability awareness efforts on campus or in your classroom or in your home from a research-based social justice lens, then you definitely wanna grab my trifold laminated resource entitled Beyond Disability Awareness: An Educator's Guide. This is published through NPR Inc, and in it you'll find that I've efficiently compiled the foundational points that you'll find in my books, as well as on this podcast. And I've organized them in a way that makes disability awareness quickly accessible and convenient for busy educators and families like you. Check out the show notes or go to my website, dianapastoracarson.com for a link to this valuable resource. Now let's get started.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. I'm your host, Diana Pastora Carson. Here you'll find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K-12 communities. This show serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Now let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hi everyone. We are back with Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. So glad to be back. A few months ago, I was able to attend the annual TASH Conference in Baltimore, Maryland, and there not only did this podcast Beyond Awareness, Disability Awareness That Matters, receive the Positive Images in the Media Award, but I also got to learn from so many wonderful, like-minded, in-action, in the trenches presenters. And one of the presentations I attended was led by Dr. Cassie Martin and her team of professionals in a particular school in Washington D.C., which she's gonna share about in a few minutes. But as I sat in her presentation, I became such a fan girl and it took everything in me not to bulldoze through everyone else in the room in order to get to her and let her know that she was going to be a guest on this podcast. And fortunately, you obliged. And here we are, Dr. Cassie Martin, welcome to the Beyond Awareness Podcast.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Thank you so much for having me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So can you get us started by introducing yourself? Let us know who you are, what you're up to.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
My name is Dr. Cassie Martin. I use she/her pronouns. I'm located in Washington State. I am the Executive Director of Special Education for the Office of the Superintendent of Public Instruction, here in Washington. Prior to the work that I am doing here at the state, I was the architect of the Inclusionary Practices Demonstration Sites Project, which are 16 demonstration sites across the state of Washington that are highlighting inclusionary practices and schools and communities on various stages of their journey in implementing inclusionary practices. And over the course of the last year, we've transitioned from really kind of focusing on this as an inclusionary practices project to really thinking about it as a movement, and now a network. So we are now the Inclusionary Practices Technical Assistance Network, and we're really trying to reimagine the way that we're thinking about inclusive education across schools in Washington state.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow. What an accomplishment. And thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I can't imagine all that that entails-- 16 demonstration sites! That's pretty amazing. That's great, thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So I heard a lot about McMicken Elementary School and I know there are more, but I, I wanna focus on McMicken Elementary School. And can you tell us a little bit more about the process for taking it from a special education site to an inclusive model school?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Sure. And actually, you know, McMicken Elementary was kind of the impetus for the entire Demonstration Sites Project. So this was prior to the Demonstration Sites project being a thing. I had the opportunity, I was at the University of Washington and I had the opportunity where I was doing some equity symposiums for principals in the Highland School District, which is the district just south of Seattle in Washington. And when I was doing those equity symposiums, it ended up that then I kind of partnered with some schools in the district to again, help them become more inclusive. And through that journey, the district leadership met with me and they asked me what was one thing that I really wanted to do. And you know, as someone at the University of Washington, we were struggling with practicum placements because we would be teaching content around inclusive education, and then our practicum students would be placed in segregated settings.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
And so how we transitioned was I said, well, I would really love to have to create a model demonstration site for inclusive education in your district and think about what that could do for educator recruitment and retention, which we know has been a challenge. Um, we could do practicum placements in your district and then people would be learning in inclusive school environments and then could become educators within your district implementing best practices. And so they said, "Great, let's do it. Write a proposal." And I just had a few asks as part of that proposal. What I wanted was, I had spent so much time in the district like really trying to help schools kind of get themselves out of really, really hard situations. And instead, what I wanted to do was, I said that I, there's only a few asks that I have. One is I want a school that has some things going well.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
And again, it doesn't even necessarily need to be related to the education of students with disabilities, but have some things that are going well that we can use to elevate and facilitate change. Because I was using research methodology and action research tool called Appreciative Inquiry to help kind of shift the culture of schools and systems. And then number two, I wanted innovative site-based leadership. I was like, if there's some innovative site-based leadership, a principal that I can work with that is a big picture thinker, then I really believe, based on the research, that we can sustain and scale this model across the school. So that started my partnership with McMicken Elementary-- which at the time was a focus school for special education-- which meant that it was having challenges including students with disabilities in general education and we were able to transition again to now being one of the most inclusive schools and districts in Washington.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So Cassie, what is your, why? Why was this so important to you? How did you get into inclusive education?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think it was from my own experiences of just not understanding, it was definitely a kind of a self-propelled kind of interest. I sought out experiences from very kind of early on in my educational career with not understanding segregation in general, and kind of trying to unpack that. And then really struggling with being a part of a system that was only created for some and not for all. And becoming frustrated with strategies that seemed to be massaging around the edges instead of really addressing the systemic issues that were in place in our public school system. Which really comes down to kind of, you know, what we were talking about earlier, there's, you know, some ableist and racist structures that exist within our systems and that we have these schools that weren't created with a group of students in mind. And we're trying these weird ways without shifting the entire system to kind of fit students in, instead of transforming the system so it works for everyone. So, I had these ideas of how to do that, and I mean, it really just came down to, you know, equity and social justice and the dignity of all. Every single student that enters our public schools should always feel like this school was created with me in mind.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, I love that so much. Oh my gosh. That leads me to my next question. So I know that effective inclusion doesn't happen overnight, and you mentioned that you had ideas for how to do this. A school can't be completely upended all at once and suddenly be great at inclusion. I'm sure you've figured that out in your quest. So what are the steps that you advise districts and schools to take in order to create inclusive possibilities in schools and districts?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Well, I think what's most important when I see schools being successful, I talked a little bit earlier about the tool that I've used, the organizational development and action research tool that I've used, which I've found a lot of efficacy, which is Appreciative Inquiry, which really looks at what an organization is doing well already, what's in place and using that to as a catalyst for change. So I think that, you know, when you are able to engage with folks what's working well and and share stories around what's working well, you can really get to kind of like that heart piece. And I think that that's one of the things that we don't do well in education around thinking about organizational change. There's those technical aspects that we need to attend to, but there's also the adaptive change that we need to focus on. So we have the technical pieces and the adaptive pieces, and we can focus on both those, it's the technical pieces that are, you know, it's do you have an inclusive mission and vision?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Do you have an inclusive building schedule that was created with everyone in mind? Are there collaborative structures in place? Do you have inclusive IEPs for students with disabilities? Are there flexible service delivery models that meet the needs of all learners? But then there's also the adaptive skills, which are all about those relationships. And if those aren't in place, then you can't make the changes needed to really transform a larger system. So it really is kind of identifying what are those technical pieces that are already in place? What are some areas and systems we have in place that are working well? And what can we learn from that in addition to what are those relationships that are really necessary to facilitate change?
Speaker 1:
Oh, beautiful. I love it. Thanks. So what does research tell us? Some people might be thinking, you know, having students with disabilities included in this general education classroom is going to "take away" the attention from the students without disabilities. But what does research tell us about the impact of inclusion on students with and without disabilities?
Speaker 2:
Well, I mean, honestly, what the research tells us is that when we follow the path of the most marginalized and learn from them, that it removes barriers for every single one of the students in our schools. So, you know, we talk about that a lot in kind of the work that we do because currently in Washington state, what happened was we were making a lot of progress in our implementing inclusionary practices. So what we were seeing in Washington was we, we had a seismic shift, in terms of students accessing general education. We were really excited about that. But then we started disaggregating our data. What we saw was we weren't seeing the same outcomes for students with intellectual disabilities and black students with disabilities. So that tells us that we are still giving permission to exclude. And what that's also telling us, people get really nervous when we talk about such a specific aim, but again, we're focusing on those students who are most marginalized.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
What we know is those structures and supports we've put in place for our students who are most marginalized help every single one of our students. So, you know, there is a whole body of research that talks about the benefits of including students with disabilities and also for students without disabilities. Historically, we've talked mostly about the social-emotional benefits, which are so, so important. But the research over about the last 20 years really gives information about the academic benefits too, for students without disabilities, learning how to explain core content in different ways to their peers, leadership... There, there are all sorts of benefits for every single one of our students when we make sure that we're really thinking about everyone from the very beginning.
Diana Pastora Carson:
What about your students and faculty at McMicken and your other demonstration sites are you the most proud of?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
I mean, I am so incredibly proud of all the educational leaders that I have the opportunity to work with across the system. I love the way that I'm able to see inclusive leadership kind of cascade across our system. So we have our inclusive principals, we have our inclusive teachers, we have our inclusive students. We see that inclusive leadership at every single level of the system, families, community members. And to me, that kind of leadership across all levels of our system coming from every which direction, results in really transformational change. So it's also watching educators go through that transformation has just been such an incredible experience and, and those educators where people say, "Well, that one, they're never gonna get it." And then when you see that "click" and that light go on, that like, they have those experiences where they see that they can do it because, you know, my rule of thumb is always kind of, you know, I try to believe that, you know, no one's trying to be a jerk.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
There's a lot of fear and discomfort and change. And so how do we get to a place where we can support our educators? And people say that folks are resistant to change. And in these communities I've worked with, I just haven't found that at all. They've embraced that change. They are those, that kind of lifelong learners. I think about the tremendous amount that I've learned from them throughout the course of my career. As someone that's supposed to be leading the work I'm constantly learning. They are helping me better understand the way the system works and the ways that the system needs to change and transform, which has just been such an incredible experience for me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you. That's extraordinary. That's beautiful. Thank you. So just for fun, rapid fire bonus questions. Jump rope or hopscotch,
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Jump rope
Diana Pastora Carson:
Dancing or singing?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Dancing.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Coffee or tea?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Coffee. I'm in Seattle.
Diana Pastora Carson:
. That's true. You are from Seattle. Coffee, of course! Audio books or paper books?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Neither, Kindle.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Kindle . I should have put that in there. That would've been universal. More universal, right?! Favorite TV series when you were a kid?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Punky Brewster. If that doesn't tell my generation,
Diana Pastora Carson:
That takes me back! Favorite teacher growing up?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Her name is Yolanda Gonzales.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yolanda Gonzalez.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
First grade.
Speaker 1:
Nice. Your favorite place to be?
Speaker 2:
With my children, usually on some sort of beach. And I'm talking about like northwest beaches, not warm tropical beaches. Beautiful blustery, northwest beaches, or on some sort of a soccer field, or a basketball court, playing with them.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice. I love that image. Something a child has said or done that brightened your day, made you laugh, or changed your entire world.
Dr. Cassie Martin:
Oh gosh. There's so many things going through the, again, showing my age, the Rolodex of all the different children that I've had the opportunity to interact with. You know, watching a student that I had worked with for years who was even removed from school as a result of the school being unable to accommodate and meet their needs, graduate from high school, and look at me and say, "We did it!" And I had nothing to do with it. I said, "No, you did." I had nothing to do with it. But that idea that we did it, that we were a team was really exciting to me because it's never just one person. We all have a role to play.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes, we do. Cassie, are there any offerings that you have, or any resources that you want to share with the listeners of the podcast?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
You know, I mentioned that we've kind of transitioned here in Washington from Inclusionary Practices Project to our Technical Assistance Network. And you can check out our website at www.k12.wa.us/iptn, and it's got some great resources, kind of shows the partner organizations that we're working with, and just hopefully it'll give folks an idea of how to break down silos and really focus on that larger transformation.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Awesome. And if anybody would like to reach out to you would you like to have your email in the show notes or..?
Dr. Cassie Martin:
That sounds good. Yeah, that works.
Speaker 1:
All right. We can do that. Dr. Cassie Martin, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:
Diana. I really appreciate you having me today. Thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Beyond Awareness Disability Awareness That Matters. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me, Diana on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and at facebook.com/gobeyondawareness. Or go to my website for more information at www.dianapastoracarson.com. Links to my books and resources can be found at dianapastoracarson.com/store. For your free Beyond awareness resource called How to Talk About Disability with Kids, simply go to GoBeyondAwareness.com/talk. Podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music provided courtesy of, my son, Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again. Be well, be a lifelong learner and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
