Diana Pastora Carson:
Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me today. Before we get started with our amazing guest, I wanna tell you about a brand new disability awareness educators guide that I am so excited to announce. It's published through National Professional Resources Inc. And it's a trifold laminated Beyond Disability Awareness: An Educator's Guide that really takes everything that you will find in my books and on the podcast, and just gives you...It's kind of like Cliff's Notes of disability awareness in a way that's respectful and founded in research and a social justice lens. So if you're interested in checking it out, you can go to DianaPastoraCarson.com/store, and you'll find a link there. Now, let's get started.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. I'm your host, Diana Pastora Carson. Here you'll find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K through 12 communities. This show serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and/or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Now, let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness Disability Awareness That Matters. Today we have with us Dr. Leah Kelley, who has 20 plus years of classroom experience in K 12 schools. She's also an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia with a focus on disability studies and educational practice. Leah is a neurodivergent activist, film producer, storyteller, and writer. Her blog is 30 Days of Autism where she shares her experiences, insights, and poetry. And she is the author of the newly released and highly acclaimed book, The Person Who Arrives: Connecting Disability Studies and Educational Practice for Teachers, Parents, and Others. The Person Who Arrives is a weaving of stories, art and poetry that makes space for another way of conceptualizing disability and of being present to disabled children and students in our schools and in our lives. It is an invitation to consider the ideas and concepts of disability studies, and the importance of including the perspectives and lived experience of disabled people in guiding our practice as educators and parents. It's a journey that encourages the reader to explore their biases, attending to the influence of ableism, the importance of the language we use, the models and constructs we draw upon, and the ways that these inherently shape our approach, understanding, and response to disability.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That was the summary from Amazon, and I'm gonna also add this book is about connecting disability studies to educational practice, which is my passion. It is for teachers and parents. And as one of your reviewers says, "It's for just about anyone who caress about inclusion and social justice." Enough said, Dr. Leah Kelley, we are soul sisters, and I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for being here.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Thanks so much for having me. I was really, I've been really looking forward to this, so I'm delighted to be here, and thank you for your honoring and very generous introduction. I'm a little bit overwhelmed.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, well, I'm so happy you're here. Let us begin with your why. Leah, what is your why? My friends all know that my brother Joaquin is my why, and that that has extended to each student that I've ever had who didn't quite fit that, that pre-written narrative of what is normal and what is valuable. So why is appreciation for the disability experience and all experiences and inclusion and belonging important to you personally?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Well, that's an interesting question and a big, a big question. I was raised up to be an activist and my parents were activists. So I think I come with that preset understanding or, or just that immersion in, in social justice. And when I began teaching and relationship and, and, and attunement are really important to me. So I was often, when I was like a primary teacher in, in a a regular education classroom, I was often the placement for students from British Columbia. So inclusion is, is a big thing and has been, I think since like 1987. So inclusion in general, education classrooms was the thing that that happened. And I loved working with those students and figuring out how to make things work and working with their families and, and working with them. And, and I love the opportunities to just create belonging, connection, and community in the classroom and the opportunity to see those children flourish.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
And then, well, I have two children. I have a daughter who's older and then, and then my son was born and I was noticing things developmentally that just looked a little bit unusual to what I would expect-- because I know a lot about early childhood development. And then he received a diagnosis, so suddenly I was on the other side of the IEP table. So I took those social justice ideas and or ways of being and that attunement and wanting belonging. And now I was on the other side going, "Oh." And so just as I learned more about my son's experience, I was, I was really clear right from the beginning that the label was not a lid. It was a word that created an opening into understanding his experience and perspective. And then I very fortunately, very, uh, quickly became connected with adult autistic people and became very involved in disability communities, really has guided my practice.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I knew that my son was going to grow up to be an autistic adult, right? And I saw these things about children, and I was like, that just doesn't fly. Right? This is not a childhood phenomenon. It's a, it's a, someone being that's who they are.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-Hmm. .
Dr. Leah Kelley:
So connecting with autistic adults and other disabled adults has really guided my practice and ensuring that Harrison saw adults who are like him in his world and in our friendships, and he's been surrounded and mentored by disabled activists, disabled adults, and and so have I. The why I think that the way we conceive of disability and neurodivergence is very limiting. It's very stigmatized. And I recognize my privilege in being white, cisgendered Canadian woman that has housing stability, and is financially, not rich by any means, but you know, like it's, I have stability and access to higher education.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Yeah, those are a lot of privileges. The straight white, cis Canadian. And it was important to me to look at how I could take my actions. I started with blogging and really talking about acceptance and, and pushing back against stigma as involved with Boycott Autism Speaks and PAC Club Parenting Autistic Children with love and acceptance and my own blog, which is really pushing back against stigma and normalizing disability. Not to diminish it, not to disappear it, but to say this is a normal part of the broad range, range of human experience. And how are we addressing, how are we responding? How are we building relationships with people all humans and that all humans have value? And then, well, my blog has been pretty quiet since 2015, when I started my doctoral program. 'cause my writing was going there. And then subsequent to that, I, uh, like when I finished that, that's when I began my book.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
And I just really felt that I had this privileged access to higher education and the ability to focus in and, and work steadfastly. My brain can be all over the map, but the thing I have going for me is I'm persistent and really stubborn. So if I'm passionate about something, I can work on something for a really long time. Yeah. And I thought if I could get my foot in the door, then I'm not going alone. I will take other people with me. And in saying that, I mean, I had the opportunity to shine a light on other perspectives and bring in other resources, not commonly drawn upon. I hope that that's what I was doing with my blog. And I was like, okay, what's next?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Leah, the title of your book is The Person Who Arrives: Connecting Disability Studies and Educational Practice for Teachers, parents, and others. When you say the person who arrives, who is that that you're talking about? What do you mean?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Well, it could mean the person who arrives is a layered concept, I think. And in the book you notice that there aren't actually chapters, there's arrivals and there's not a table of contents. There's an itinerary and the idea of multiple arrivals that we don't really arrive. And then it also draws upon a philosopher Hannah Arendt's notion of natality, which is like a birth and, and how that ties in with arrivals. So when we meet someone, it's actually the idea that it's a birth for both of us, that we're both changed by that interaction. Hmm. That new connection. Hmm. Um, and so that arrival, if it's a child who arrives in your family, in your life, or in your classroom, a student who arrives that we're both changed in that moment? Yes. And we actually have the opportunity, I think, to choose how we respond in those moments.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
And that's very much attunement and relationship. And it speaks loudly to acceptance. And then also the idea of arriving speaks to me and my journey and my coming to understand how in writing this book, it was really important for me to situate myself and ident in my identity as someone who identifies as disabled. That I wasn't coming to tell someone else's stories. I was coming to tell my own story. There are stories about me with my son, and we've shared those together and he's, you know, listened and heard and responded to the stories and had the opportunity to say yes or no for everything, multiple, multiple times. And then I've been able to pull in stories with just such generous permission from who I know in autistic communities that have been included. So their stories are side by side. So that idea of arrivals has multiple layers.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that so much. It's not an arrogant statement. It's about that interaction of personal growth and learning and love between different parts of humanity. Mm-Hmm. , I love it. And it's
Dr. Leah Kelley:
About pr in that moment when, uh, yeah, like who am I when this, when this child or person arrives in my life and, and how does who I am affect them and they affect me? And it, it just,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. What a liberating and empowering way to perceive those interactions as an educator with so many different bright lights coming into your existence every day, you know, from different home lives, different states of being, and Oh, I love that so much. Thank you. You talk about radical acceptance in the book as well. Can you tell us more about that concept of radical acceptance?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Well, in my like research I was trying to find like, where does this come? 'cause it is a term that's used in disability communities. So I was like, okay, I need to know like where, and it's, it really comes from like CBTI think that idea of radical acceptance, but
Diana Pastora Carson:
CBT
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Yeah. Cognitive, cognitive
Diana Pastora Carson:
Behavior therapy.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Yeah. I think something along those ideas. Dialectical behavior therapy or something like that. Mm-Hmm. . But I really was trying to find it more around disability and Mm-Hmm. And so I worked to explain it. I couldn't really find a lot, you, I'm not the queening person of this term,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right? No. There's a book called Radical Acceptance, but I wanted to see how your,
Dr. Leah Kelley:
So it's like, it's like how do you take, it's, it's that welcoming Mm-Hmm. . It's like, I welcome you as you are Yes. And as already perfect in this moment. Mm-Hmm. and, and that acceptance that this is who you are in this moment, and now in relationship, in connection, in supporting the environment, in creating community, then we can move forward, right? Because, you know, gaining skills, learning as an educator, that's we're all developing, we're all learning. So how do we support development? But I really believe it starts with that idea of radical acceptance. Like, because I've heard like not, I mean, this isn't a quote, but that attitude of, oh yeah, I love to have autistic students in my class, but could you just make them a little less autistic first? Right. Like, sure, but could you just have them not do this? Well, they, they come in that way. And I think very early on in my teaching, my father who's passed away, he was an educator too. And he would say, Leah, these families are not sending you their second best kids to hold back their best kids to see first how you do with them. Right. These are their best kids.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
These are their best children. Mm-Hmm. . They're sending you these kids and trusting that you will educate them and help them develop. Yeah. That's really like, these are the best. The kids in your class are the best kids.
Diana Pastora Carson:
.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Mm-Hmm. . Right. The kids in your school are the best kids. They're ,
Diana Pastora Carson:
They're perfect. They're perfect for you.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Yeah. And I, I, that really stuck with me that, that there's an honoring to welcoming every kid.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. I love how in your work you are so conscious of ensuring that everyone is at the table, Leah, that everyone's voice is heard and ex and acknowledged and that everyone's journey and story matters. Have you always been so intentionally inclusive or did you have to learn this mindset? And if so, how did you learn it? Are you still on that journey?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I think I'm still on that journey. Hmm. Um, I think very young. 'cause I have ADD one of the things is I would burst into a room and start a conversation, and it honestly didn't occur to me that anyone could have been having a conversation before I entered. So . So, you know, like, and I would get in trouble a lot for interrupting. And I, I have to still be conscious of interrupting. So just in my personal interactions, learning to just tender myself and be a little quiet and ensure other people have space is something I'm very, very deliberate about. Mm-Hmm. But that's in personal interactions. I wonder sometimes if there's internalized ableism around that and that maybe I take it too far and don't hold enough space sometimes. You know, and that's probably layered in with misogyny and a whole bunch of other things.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
But then there's, there's another level too, about space and that, and taking space. And, um, when I started blogging, when I started listening to people in disability communities, autistic adults, I really, really learned that sitting back and being quiet and reading and listening and learning was key. Hmm. So that's, that's another layer. And then I knew that as a parent and an educator, I had immense privilege in that the tendency was for people to listen more to what I had to say than to autistic or other neurodivergent or disabled adults. Mm-Hmm. So I was positioned in a way that created an opportunity for me to shine a light on other folks work. Right. And so to me, it's a commitment or an ethic that I can take the privilege I have and acknowledge the privilege I have and, and use it to highlight other perspectives.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
And that, that is one of the tenets of disability studies is that we draw upon lived experience and my experience in working with other educators and, and getting feedback from them on the, the what they're learning about disability and their university programs and going to different conferences like CE, C and hash and those kinds of things. And then just being involved in teaching at the university is, is a lot of the courses don't draw on lived experience. So professionalism informs professionalism, informs professionalism, and maybe parents have some stuff in there. But the lived experience is really lacking in the way we've create pedagogy. So we have a pedagogy of inclusion, but we don't practice inclusion in the creation of that pedagogy.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right. Yeah. Whose voices
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Conclusion,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Whose voices are amplified and who's are left out.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Right. So people think they know the answers, they know how to do this, or they're looking for the program for that, or they're doing this or doing that. But we're really not responding and relational. And I'm not saying that in a blanket statement, but I'm saying that very generalized notion of how we encounter disability is, is that we have the program or we have the answer. So how do we even take that lived experience and respond to the experience and what we're hearing from or noticing from our students,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Because they're giving us feedback like we know something's not working, but the tendency is to say it's not working and then locating the problem in the disabled student that it's not working, it's not working 'cause we haven't asked the right question or we haven't, don't have the answer yet. Right. Or there's an environmental thing. Or there's
Diana Pastora Carson:
How have we responded and how have we not responded? Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
. And then other idea about where we locate the problem of disability. Like it's very much the medical model that we look at the person and we say, the problem of disability is located in the person. Right. You are the problem and that we're gonna fix you. Rather than saying, the problem of disability is located in systems
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
and structures and our response if we're willing to look at and stigma. Right?
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that. Mm-Hmm. . But you don't, you don't limit your inclusivity to people with disabilities in your book. You're so conscious of including everyone and intersectional identities when people's other identities intersect with disability. Yeah. Can you say more about that? Like how did you learn to ensure that you had everybody at the table? Well,
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Disability is not a siloed experience. It's not a siloed identity and the intersection, you know, and as a white cis woman, I don't know how well I'm gonna necessarily speak to intersectionality. I don't know if it's even my place, but I'll give it a shot, . And that is that if we're look at L-G-B-T-Q to plus people, people of other backgrounds, race bipo people, people with living in poverty geographies, how that plays out. There's so much layering at those intersections. Mm. If I understand that disability isn't like a siloed identity, then, and, and if I have a commitment or an ethic to draw upon lived experience, I can ensure it can matter to me. It could be my ethic that I draw in experience from these other identities and lay and, and make sure they're represented in this work.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that you do that. So this podcast is focused on educators and families who wanna make a difference for children with disabilities. And oftentimes they begin with what they know, which is traditional disability awareness activities. What are your thoughts about quote unquote disability awareness? Where should we be focusing in order to make the ultimate positive difference empowering equity in the lives of kids and adults with disabilities? What mindset do we need to have? Will we achieve your why and my why by simply doing traditional disability awareness activities?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I don't think so.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Why not?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I think we can all be aware disability exists, but until we look more deeply at what are our biases, how we conceptualize disability, how we conceive of disability, and start to take on stigma and start to take on that to be disabled isn't to be less than. Hmm. And that it's not to be inspirational and it's not a thing to be overcome. Yes. It doesn't mean you don't celebrate successes and sometimes they're tiny little successes, but they're huge. Right. They're, they're big moments for us, but that isn't in opposition to the identity of being disabled. And I think we have an opportunity as parents, as educators, and as people who identify as disabled and as people who are allies to people who identify as disabled to look at how we, what are our notions around disability and do we use, do we draw upon that in waste? Like they call it inspiration form. Like Stella Young has a YouTube had a had YouTube video. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. And I have an episode with Dr. Tony Seia on the topic of inspiration porn on this podcast too. Yeah.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Right. And so really the use of porn is you're objectifying somebody else's experience in a way that kind of makes you feel better about yourself or your own experience or Right. Bring the tear degra eye or something like that. Yeah. And so I don't think that's,
Diana Pastora Carson:
I'm gonna get us where we wanna go, is it
Dr. Leah Kelley:
We're not gonna tear down systems
Diana Pastora Carson:
. Right. You know,
Dr. Leah Kelley:
And, and examine what are we doing that's perpetuating the idea that we're doing these kids a favor to include them or that they're getting an unfair advantage in having access technol to technology that's gonna support their learning. Because not everybody else has that. I've worked with students who had access to a laptop or screen reader, and somehow they had in their own head the message that that was giving them an unfair advantage. And so their ethic was they didn't wanna use it or they were embarrassed to use it. Or someone had said to them somewhere along the line that it was unfair. They had an unfair advantage. And the embarrassment at at identifying as disabled and people's reluctance to even say the word disability. Yeah. And, and I think we're at a danger right now of disappearing disability, at least in Canada, under the umbrella of diversity. Right. Diversity including all of these equity seeking groups. Mm-Hmm. . But if we talk about like that big umbrella diversity, I think that's an important concept. But if we can't say actually name disability in that, there's a risk of disappearing it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Of course. Yeah. Well said. Okay. Just for fun. All right. Have a few bonus questions for you. All right. Beach or mountains?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Oh, I guess it depends. I like 'em both. I couldn't say. Okay.
Diana Pastora Carson:
. Okay. How about coffee or tea?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Oh, again, it depends. Sometimes it's coffee and sometimes, I'm sorry, I sound really wishy-washy. I'm usually like super
Diana Pastora Carson:
Fun. I know, I know this one. Dog or cat?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Dog.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. .
Dr. Leah Kelley:
But again, I like cats, but my family is very allergic, so I have no clue.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Okay. Well you have a beautiful dog. Let's see. Audio books or paper.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I really like audio books. Mm, me too. But I Cat right now. It's in the
Diana Pastora Carson:
I know, I know. That's the down. The one Downside. Good book you've read recently. Doesn't have to be about disability studies or anything educational.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Don't know if I can pull up the title, but it was a book by Ivan Coyote and Ivan writes all these stories that are just really cap, like
Diana Pastora Carson:
What is the genre? Must
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Be biography.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Or storytelling.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Uhhuh. . I've got Gender Failure; Tomboyp
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Rebent Sinner;
New Speaker:
Tomboy.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Tomboy? Thank you. Okay. All right. Next question. Favorite place to be?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Probably on the beach, looking at rocks.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, nice.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Favorite memory of your parents?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Probably with my dad, the way he'd take my hand was almost uncomfortable. And just say encouraging things and be really proud. And my mom going walking with her, likes to walk.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Lovely. If you could say one thing to students with disabilities in schools.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Learn about ableism.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
It's a word. . You need to have that idea and concept.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Dr. Leah Kelly, where can people find you and your work? Uh,
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Facebook page called 30 Days of Autism. And I have a blog called 30 30 Days of Autism and, and my book's on Amazon. The person who arrives connecting disability studies and educational practice for teachers, parents, and others. And I'm currently on, what is it X, formerly known as Twitter.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Do you have a website?
Dr. Leah Kelley:
I just have my 30 days of autism blog. I don't have a website at this point. I'm on LinkedIn and those kinds of things.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. All right. Dr. Leah Kelly, thank you so much for being with me today.
Dr. Leah Kelley:
Thank you so much for having me. It was a treat to talk to you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Beyond Awareness Disability Awareness That Matters. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts Google Podcast for Spotify. You can also follow me, Diana on Instagram at Diana pastora Carson and at facebook.com/go beyond awareness. Or go to my website for more information at www.dianapastoracarson.com. Links to my books and resources can be [email protected] slash store. For your free beyond awareness resource called How to Talk About Disability with Kids, simply go to go beyond awareness.com/talk. Podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes, intro and outro music provided courtesy of my son Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again. Be well, be a lifelong learner and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
