Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. I'm your host, Diana Pastora Carson. Here you'll find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K through 12 communities. This show serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and/or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Now, let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. I am so excited to introduce our guest today. Her name is Dr. Shelley Moore. Shelley is a Canadian educator and an expert on special education who also has taught in the us. She is the author of One Without the Other, which I've read a couple times, as well as her upcoming book, all for One, which I look forward to reading. Shelly is a teacher researcher, YouTuber and extraordinary speaker. She advocates for inclusive education and seeks to reform iep programs to better suit the needs of individual students. Shelly is so well-informed as it relates to disability diversity and educational policies related to students with disabilities, both in the US and in Canada. And she's brilliant and talented and funny, and really just a good human.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh! You're so, you're so funny. . Hi Everyone!
Diana Pastora Carson:
I mean every word. I'm so happy to have you here with us, and to all my listeners, if you do not follow Dr. Shelley Moore yet, you will after this conversation.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Diana Pastora Carson:
Shelley, welcome!
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Thank you for having me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome, welcome. And congratulations on getting your doctorate.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, so hard.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Woot! Woot! . And thanks for taking the time to be here and talk with us today.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, it's, we've been trying to schedule this for a long time, so I'm really glad we could come together today.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So, Shelly, I often talk about my why being my brother Joaquin. Um, and now that has extended to each student I've ever had who didn't quite fit into the pre-written narrative of what's normal and what's valuable. Can you start off by telling us what your why is? Why is inclusion so important to you?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yeah. You know, the first person who asked me that was Dan Habib.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love Dan Habib.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
I know. Everyone loves Dan Habib. Yeah. And I was at a conference and I was talking to him, and I'm just like, how do I do it? Because I was, I was practicing, I was like a classroom teacher at the time with high school students mm-hmm. . And he is like, whoa, Shelly, hold up. He's like, why, why does this matter to you? And I'm like, because it's important. Mm-hmm. , he's like, no, no. That's why it matters. Why does it matter to you? And I'm like,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Why?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Why? And so I really, I really had to think about this. I really wanted, like, I was just like, why? Like why is this my mountain?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And these, uh, and I kept getting, like, I kept like thinking back to these moments in my own schooling career that, uh, I think really kind of defines my work today. So I'm really thankful for Dan for asking that question because like when things get hard, you need to know the why.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Right?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Like, that's what keeps you going. So I would say today, if I were to say what's my why, it's because I didn't feel like I fit in school. Um, from a very early age. Um, I associated school not as a place where I was successful. Um, in grade three, I was diagnosed with having a learning disability and ADHD, which of course nobody told me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So I just thought that something was wrong with me that I couldn't read and I couldn't write and I couldn't behave. Like all these things I couldn't do. But I only felt that way at school. I didn't, didn't feel like anything was wrong with me out in the world. And so I just associated school with this place that sucked.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Where I wasn't happy and I didn't wanna go. Um, and, uh, then I was actually got expelled 'cause I beat up my bully, but that's a story for another day. And, um, but I went to this different, I went to this school and it wasn't an alternate school. It just was a different school that was built closer to home. But what was different about it is that it was designed as a middle school, not a junior high, which I didn't even know the difference, but a middle school is designed with pedagogy and research around how middle schoolers learn. Which is very different than just a junior high, which is just a school for smaller high school students. Right.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I didn't know that either.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
I know, right? 11 year olds are not miniature 17 year olds.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
You know? . And so I didn't know this. I didn't know this at the time. So I go to this school and everything, like everything was designed for, for us. Right. You know, and if you think about middle schoolers, like the most important thing to them are their friends and their community. And they're starting to figure out who they are and their independence. And so the whole school was organized in cohorts, and we had teams and it was, we had, um, like cross-curricular planning and inquiry-oriented. And I, like, I just, I saw this glimpse about what school could be 'cause I thrived.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
I could show my learning in any way. Like it was UDL before even people knew. No. You know? Yeah. Like, we built a life-size blue whale out of paper mache, you know, like, it was unbelievable. I loved that school. Like I'm still, I'm still, I still connect with my teacher from that school. She spoke at my wedding. Like the school changed my life. And it wasn't a special school, it just was a school that was just like, let's do things differently. Let's not be, let's not have the barrier of this is how we've always done it in the way
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-hmm. .
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so I was there for two years, cross-grade, grades 7, 8, 9 all together in one room. We had different teachers come to us. Like it just was out of the box, innovative. And so I got this glimpse of what school could be
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-hmm. .
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And I was like, why is this the only school that this happens at? Like, why is this school an exception? Like, why aren't all schools like this? Like, why, you know...
Diana Pastora Carson:
When were you thinking that? Like, as a middle schooler, as a ninth grader?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yes. Because my mom asked me, she's like, uh, do you like your new school? I'm like, yeah. She's like, well, why? And I'm like, well, I don't know. I just like, why do I have to go to any other place? Like, this is where I want to be. So when I had to go back to a traditional high school, I hated it again.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so I got this glimpse, and at the time, like as a 14, 15 year old, I was just like, oh, well I had a great middle school, but I can't change the system . Right. But it, you know that two years shifted my perspective from I can't to I can.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Which got me through the drudgery of secondary school, enough to graduate. But I like, but it was enough of a little like, flame to be like, I gotta blow up education. know, because by the time I got into my undergrad, I was like, I'm gonna become a teacher and explode this from the inside because
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
every time I tell the story, they're like, oh yeah, that's what it was like for me too. And I'm like, the schoolwork for anyone. Like, come on. . It should, you know, e every year should be a good year every year. And you know, the more that I do this work, the more that I hear from people being like, it's a lottery whether you have a good year.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Many kids don't have any. And I'm like, this is outrageous. And so this got me on the inclusive education path because I realized that what I felt was inclusive education.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm. That's awesome. I love it.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so that's my why is that I, there's too many kids who don't get a lucky year.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. .
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And it's, that's not, that's not a mandate. Being lucky is not our mandate.
Diana Pastora Carson:
No...that's a tragedy.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So then I got into special education and started working with kids with intellectual disabilities. I felt it again.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
I felt that feeling again. And I'm like, why are we in the corner of the building? Like, these kids have something to offer, let's go. And it just got me on this path, and I will never get off of it because it is so needed.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That is your mountain. I love it.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
It's my mountain.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, Shelly. Okay. So in your book, one without the other and in the several times that I've heard you speak, you talk about the myths of inclusion. There's so, so many, we have so many myths about inclusion. Right. So many myths. What is inclusion and what is it not? Can you go over some of your thoughts on this?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Well, and I mean, the reason why this is a tricky question is because like, the definition of what it means to be inclusive has changed over time. Right? So like, if you look at education in the 1940s, inclusion meant that school jurisdictions were just considering disability. That they just were allowed to come to school.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
They were allowed to just come. It didn't
Diana Pastora Carson:
Allowed!
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yeah. It didn't just have to be, it didn't even have to be the same school as their peers. They just, they just had to be considered in programming.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
That was more inclusive than them not being allowed at all. So for some people, that's their definition because that's where they got stuck. Other people's definitions are, oh, well, they're in the building mainstreaming, they're in the building that is more inclusive than not being in the building. Yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So if that's where we got stuck, then that's the definition. So I mean, as we've evolved over time learning from policy and parents and families and students, and we've learned that, that that's not what inclusion means anymore. Right. Like inclusion means how are, how are we providing, not just educational services, but how are we providing opportunities for belonging and learning and shared experiences for our diverse students without subdividing them. Right? Like right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
How do we look at our public population and say, this is the community, these are our public, how do we respond to them? Not try and change them, not try and organize them, not try and homogenize them. How do we respond to them? How do we create shared learning opportunities? How do we support community, social, emotional wellbeing? And you know what, that doesn't mean we abandon curriculum, but it does mean we take a real hard look at the infrastructures that are in place based from the forties, based on the fifties and saying, why are we still arguing for things that we know are outdated?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
But if you ask me tomorrow what my definition of inclusion is, it might change, again, . So, you know what I mean? But I mean, there are, there are elements that we are advocating for today for what inclusion is that are different than five years ago that are different than 10 years ago. And so what inclusion means is that we are always learning about how to do that in this job. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. You talk about that it's not just students with disabilities. Mm-hmm. You talk about it's not the same thing as integration. And I love, it's not a place in time, it's not a destination. Can you elaborate a little bit more on those distinctions?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yeah. So a big shift in the inclusive movement, and this was probably around the fifties and sixties, was the shift from mainstreaming to integration. And that was the difference is mainstreaming is they're streamed into a main school. Mm-hmm.
Diana Pastora Carson:
,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Right? And integration is they're integrated into classrooms. Mm-hmm.
Diana Pastora Carson:
, neither
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Of those talk about community.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right? Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
They talk about location. And so the evolution was, well, we can't just talk about location. Right? So how do we build on that to say, okay, coming together is a first step, but how do we move beyond the minutes? Because you can be together 100% of the time and not feel included at all. Right? So how do we actually facilitate to inclusion, which is the difference between location and place, and the difference between existing and belonging,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And how do we facilitate and, and construct that community with the students that we have, not the students that we wish we had or the students from 10 years ago. And so, you know, thinking about that difference between place and time is that, and I think sometimes we get really caught up in this, be like, well, they're included 80% of the time, and I'm like, are they included or are they integrated 80% of the time? Mm-hmm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so this is often I'll get, I'll get, this is the questions that I get. Like, how do we navigate challenging behavior? How do we navigate anxiety? My favorite, they don't wanna be included. I'm like, I don't think it's that they don't wanna be included. They don't wanna be integrated. Right. They don't wanna just exist there. Nobody does. Right. And so if we zoom out and say, how do we facilitate belonging for all students, disability included, right? We're, we're talking, this is not about taking up space and breathing the same air, but that becomes tricky because that's nuanced and that's not quantitative. And how do you mandate that and how do you can't force it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
You can't force that. And so it gets really tricky when we're trying to create policy for inclusion, but what we actually need can't be "policied". Is that a word? Right. Like
Diana Pastora Carson:
Policed, almost.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Policed! Yeah. Like that's such a good point. Policed, right? This has to be something that is co-constructed with the people in the community.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Absolutely.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Right. ,
Diana Pastora Carson:
That leads to my next question.
Diana Pastora Carson:
There's so many topics that you have vast knowledge and practical experience with experience. And one thing that I've noticed is that your work speaks to both educators and families. You are an educator and advocate for true collaboration with and for students with disabilities. And I'm also an advocate for both families and for educators, but with a very broad scope of advocating for access to life quality indicators for now and in the future. But you, in your work, you've really unpacked our policies and our practices in the education system that often evade that collaborative positive, student-centered outcomes of belonging, right? Mm-hmm. , for instance, you talk about LRE or least restrictive environment, which is a right of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. There is, you know, free and appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment (for the listeners who might not be familiar with that), can you share a little bit about your take on how we determine the least restrictive environment for students with disabilities and what we could be thinking about in terms of mindset and professional development or classroom structures, you alluded to, curricular considerations and so on, as a way to fulfill the intent of LRE.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And I love that you said that word intent. 'cause the intent of LRE is all those things.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
But LRE doesn't can take into consideration the biggest barrier, which is bias.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, yes.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So, so when we talk about, okay. And I love that you brought up like families, students and educators, because like inclusion is a model that relies on multiple expertise. So this can't just be about the school system telling families and students what to do. And it can't just be about students and families telling the school system what to do. Right. Like, it actually requires responsibility and, and a collaborative approach to both, because both is expertise we need. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, the best kind of guiding rule here is start with the student. Like start with them. They know. They know.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
They know. And so part of the program planning that we're trying to do, um, in my research is start with the student with supplemental support from the family. And then the school team responds with our expertise. So rather than us telling the family what they need to work on, we hear from the values and the priorities of the student and the family. And then we take our expertise and say, how do we respond to that as opposed to do it for them or tell them. And what's key about that is that the barrier of LRE, which was, the intent is good, like it was designed to increase access to inclusive planning. The problem is that it became a gatekeeper.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Because the, the decision for what least restrictive environment means was determined by a group of people who have bias. And so one person may look at a student and think, L r E is this, and another person could look at a student and say, LRE is this, and it's so subjective. So whether the intent was to increase, it's actually decreased. Because now there's another alternative. There's an alternative, right?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
There is a more restrictive environment like, right. And so, so I think that starting with student and family is key because they know what the least restrictive environment is, and it's our job to respond to that, that is giving continuum of services. Continuum, continuum of services is not a choice for schools. It's a choice for families, but it's usually students and families that don't get a choice at all. And so I think that it's, the intent is right, but it's been misinterpreted because of the bias that we hold that sometimes we don't even rule, we well-meaning people, Diana, well-meaning people are making decisions to not include students because they truly feel that it's not in their best interest. Like, this is not manipulative, this is not a, like, this is, this is not people staging an inclusion coup . Like this is well-meaning people who think they know what's best for a student. But the problem comes when that overtakes what a student thinks is best for themself and what a family thinks is best for their family. And so that's why that responsibility and that collaboration is so key to this work. Because what's happening now is schools and families are at each other. They're at all the time because no one feels supported and no one feels heard. And the students get trapped right in the middle of that mess. And it's, and it's frustrating for everybody.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So, so when you talk about responsivity, are you including, because I know your research is more focused on, uh, secondary students, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . So are you talking about like, could you be thinking in terms of kindergartners and For sure. Them being, being able to tell you?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, um, so for example, as a part of our IEP planning, what we're trying to do is to start with student voice first.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Okay. So this assumes competence. Everyone has a voice. We just have to be creative in capturing it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Okay. So , there was one student. So for kindergarten students, maybe this is interviewing, maybe this is giving them options with visuals, right? Like, so for the little guys, it's, so, but the thing about like kindergartners is that the default should be their class. So the responsivity is the community, right? Yeah. So if like one student may not be able to articulate in one way or another, we're responding to that whole community. But if a student's not in that community, then it's hard to be responsive. So, I mean, we're talking about little people.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Absolutely.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
There's things in place already, just the problem is kids with disabilities aren't there.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
When we get to kids who are older, right? So students in high school responsibility is more individually focused because students are making choices for their schedule in ways that kindergarten students don't. Right?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So as a part of our planning for students who are older will say like, okay, here, sit with all students. Here are the academic choices, here are the elective choices. Which ones are you interested in?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Right. What do you wanna work on this year? What are your, what, what is important for you to have in your community, in your environment to help you grow as a person? So, you know, those questions aren't actual usually asked to students, but you can ask, you can ask those questions to a five-year-old, you can ask those questions to a 16 year old, it's about what tools do they need around them to be able to answer them,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right? And
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Then what do we do about it? Right? Like, I've collected a lot of information from students, but it took me a long time to realize that I actually have to act. I actually have to act and make decisions based on their responses. Like, capturing voice is great, but what are we doing with it?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so, you know, starting and that, so that's why like there's such a huge component to Student Voice and IEP is because what better way to respond to voice and to, to then to create an educational program that aligns to the vision and values of a student and a family. So,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Know, like that to me is the ultimate responsivity is, you know, where's the student's voice in this?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right. And I, that reminds me of Herb Lovett's book Learning to Listen. You know?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
. Yeah. Totally!
Diana Pastora Carson:
Like, we have to be able to listen not only to
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yes. Um,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Verbal communication mm-hmm. , um, but learning to listen to what the student's saying, what the surrounding the interaction with their environment is telling us and what their family's saying. There
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Was, uh, one student who was, who communicates through visuals mm-hmm.
Diana Pastora Carson:
,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And the teacher was really concerned. He's just like, how do I capture her voice? She doesn't have a voice. I'm like, oh, she has a voice. We just have to be creative. And so, um, but she wasn't initiating a response. He's like, how am I supposed to connect, collect it? I'm like, well, we gotta give her options. He's like, but these options are like generic. They're not her. And I'm like, okay, well, let's get creative. And so what we did was we asked her family to interview four people who knew her really well. And then we interviewed four people at the school who knew for her really well to create really authentic options.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So then the student could choose, you know, like she had like 10 to 12 options for every question that we asked all the students. Like, what are your interests? What do you, what do you wanna work on this year? But the options were derived from people who knew her really well. So it was really authentic. And he's just like, she answered all the questions. I'm like, of course she did . The problem wasn't her answer. The problem was she didn't have any options. Right. That were authentic to her. And so, you know, but we even did it with a student in grade 10. We asked him, you know, what are you good at? He's like, nothing like totally disengaged from school. And so we've, we interviewed people who knew him really well at school, and he got this incredible list of all the things he does well. Like he just lit right up. Right. And he, you know, he's like, I do do that. And we're like, absolutely. You do. So, you know, like it's just says like, that idea of the community that surrounds us is a part of helping us feel that sense of belonging. Right. And so if we, if students aren't sharing who they are and what they need, like, you know, let's tell them how great they are. You know, let them choose from that mm-hmm.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That works for all of us. Right?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Awesome. How does inclusive education connect to conversations about diversity, equity, and inclusion? What have you noticed about DEI conversations as it relates to disability and special education?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yeah. DEI is so critical. Um, diversity, equity and inclusion have become huge conversations. I think especially over the last five years because Covid was not, how COVID was handled was not equitable at all.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
For many, many, many identities. And so I love that conversations around DEI are happening. Absolutely. Um, I think where we're getting stuck is that, um, DEI is about different identity groups, and many people don't see disability as an identity. They see it as a medical problem. And if you are trying to treat a medical problem, well-meaning people think that DEI around treating medical problems are making sure that they have interventions,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
and assessments and plans to fix them. Um, which is a very special education model, right? Like, let's find out what's wrong. Let's diagnose, let's assess that, let's diagnose, let's fix them. But from the disability perspective, disability isn't a medical problem. People with disabilities can have medical problems, but like, so can anybody, right? So they're not one and the same. And special education evolved out of that medical perspective. And so part of DEI efforts from the disability perspective is haka what disability is an identity, like any identity, like race and culture and gender and language. And if we were to treat any other identity from a medical perspective, it would be very unethical. And we have historically, like I think about indigenous populations, we have absolutely, like viewed certain identities through a medical lens. Absolutely. We now know that it's inappropriate to do that for things like culture and race. We know that we still have no problem though viewing disability through that lens. And so I think part of the DEI efforts is also knowing that disability is as equal in identity to all identities. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
This isn't the oppression Olympics. This isn't about one or the other. This is just simply recognizing that, you know, DEI has to include disability at the table, right. For it to truly be equitable. And, um, there's conversations around racism. There's conversations around, you know, students who are queer. There's conversations around so many identities that are so needed. And I'm so glad they're happening and we're not having enough conversations around ableism. And even when we are, it's still considered okay
Dr. Shelley Moore:
to many, or don't even realize that what's happening is ableist. And so I think what I've really learned, and I think that's the difference between inclusion today and inclusion 10 years ago, is that this isn't just about human rights of disability. This is about like the justice of disability and saying like, we need disability, the disability perspective at DEI conversations, otherwise we're actually missing, we're missing a voice. Um, and this isn't because they have a right to be there. It's because we need them there. Right. We need them there. Because disability is the only identity that intersects with every other identity. It's the only one. So to, to not include them at the conversation and at the table, like disability is gonna affect every single person listening, either directly or indirectly. So to not have disability at the table, is such a disservice to every other identity and the disability community. And so if there's anything that anyone takes away from today is disability is key to moving d e i efforts forward, it's key.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yep. Absolutely.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
It's the table.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's a valuable table for sure.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Totally. Yeah. So
Diana Pastora Carson:
Filled with richness of, oh,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Like it holds the answers, disability holds the answers to every question, .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm. I love that.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
You know what I mean? Like what I've learned from my own experiences and the experiences of students and families, I'm like, this is what everybody needs. Yeah. Like, it's the blueprint for life , and it's being ignored. And I'm like,
Diana Pastora Carson:
There's so much we can learn that's a value to humanity.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, it's
Diana Pastora Carson:
In general.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
I mean, it's, it's, it is key. Yeah. And so like, yeah. And so it's a challenge like looking at DEI efforts and initiatives that are happening in your communities. Like a) is disability at the table and b), is the disability perspective valued and heard? And I think one of the, the biggest, I think, um, points of advocacy from the disability community is exactly that. Like shifting away from seeing disability as a medical problem that needs to be treated.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. So what comes to mind, you know, the title of this podcast is Yeah. Disability Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. And a lot of our listeners are people who are really interested in doing disability awareness at their schools. Mm-hmm. And I wanna ask you, what comes to mind when you hear that term: disability awareness. Where should we be focusing and in order to make the ultimate positive difference in the lives of kids and adults with disabilities, which is what we want, what mindset. Mm-hmm. , what mindset do we need to have? Yeah. Will we achieve your why mm-hmm. or my why mm-hmm. By simply doing traditional disability awareness activities?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Well, I think it's gonna go back to our definitions, because if you think about if disability is in the corner of the school or in the corner of the community, awareness is really important. 'cause you've never seen them before.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mm-hmm. .
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Right. But I think we're going past awareness. I think people are very aware of disability. I just don't think they appreciate it. And, you know, and so I think that, I think it's part of the evolution as well. It's like, okay, we're at, I think people are very aware. teachers are very aware. Everyone's aware. Everyone's aware.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And so now what? Because awareness isn't enough, right. How do we take action? Disability action, disability justice, disability appreciation, disability contribution. That is the next step from awareness. And, you know, and I always think about this on Autism Awareness Day because I have a very good friend who has autism and, and I am way more aware of them. I am in full appreciation of them.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Mmmmmm
Dr. Shelley Moore:
And that means that I value them in my life. I make efforts to keep in contact, uh, you know what I mean? Like we are connected. Yeah. And you know, and I think an, a aware awareness, there was a time when awareness was key because people didn't even notice.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
So, you know, and, and, and again, like well-meaning,
Dr. Shelley Moore:
What's next? What's next?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Absolutely. What's next? I love that.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
What's next? We've moved now what?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Agreed. 100%. Okay. Shelly, just for fun. Yeah. I have a few bonus questions.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Okay.
Diana Pastora Carson:
All right. Coffee or tea?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Coffee! I'm Danish.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Black coffee or ?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
You know what? I have black coffee with dessert, but in the morning when I wake up, I have like a little, a little bit of cream and a little bit of sugar.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Soup or salad?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Soup.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Audio books or paper?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, it depends. Audio books when I'm driving, but paper books for any other time.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. East coast or West Coast?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh man. Okay. Well, again, criteria. West Coast is home. East Coast is like, east coast is like, oh man. Like character and history and old buildings. Like, you need, you, you need a little bit of east, everyone needs a little bit of East Coast in them.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. . Good. All right. Favorite TV series?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Um, right now it's Ted Lasso.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. I haven't seen that yet. I've been, I've been told I need to watch that for sure.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
It's so good.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Your favorite place to be?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, that's, uh, home. I live on a little island and you know, it's funny 'cause like I travel all the time mm-hmm. and we are recently in Australia, and I was, I said to Jessica, my wife, I'm like, I would live here. Like, this place is amazing. I love it so much. There's kangaroos. And then we got home and I got off the plane and I'm like, no, this is my place. Right. Yeah. Like just the Pacific Northwest with all its rain is just, it's home. It's home. So it's my favorite place. It's my little, I love it. My little island.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. I love the pictures you post. It does, it looks amazing.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh my gosh! It's just, it's, it's just soul-filling.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Something your mom used to say. You call her mum. So I'm calling her mum. Something your mum used to say or still says to you that you hold dear or funny.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Uh, since day one she says, Shelly, you leave a trail wherever you go. . I always know where to find you. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Well, thank goodness. Thank goodness. I love that trail. Oh my gosh. All right. Finally, you have two beautiful children. I do. When did you know that you were not the one in charge?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, second ONE. . One second into the birth. Oh, let me tell you, these children are two and five months old and I have a PhD. Like I have seen a lot. I have, I have, I have seen and navigated very challenging behavior and I have no idea what I'm doing. . I have no idea what I'm doing. These like, no, they, I, I, no, they're the boss and I'm just along for the ride. Oh. Straight from the mountains. She's only communicating through roaring like a dinosaur. Like I can't compete with that.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, I'm sure Sure. It's, it's entertaining to say the least. Oh my gosh. Straight from the mouth of Dr. Shelley Moore.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Oh, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that. Authentic Shelly. Mm-hmm. . So Shelly, are there any new offerings that you have that you'd like to share with our listeners?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Yeah, so, um, I have a couple projects on the go. Uh, the first project that's available is, um, as you can imagine, based on this conversation, you can imagine that the other mountain I'm climbing right now is individual education plans. Mm-hmm. , which are very medically oriented and deficit based. And so, um, and they're not super helpful to inclusion 'cause they weren't designed to be inclusive. And so, you know, how do we kind of evolve those to align with the goals of today, inclusion today. So I have a course on, they're called, it's called Inclusive and Competency-Based IEPs. And that is also what the next book's going to be about. That will come out, I promise. Nice, nice. You know, we're getting closer. Um, and then yeah, like, um, the five more minute videos are starting up again. Yes. This month. So keep keep your eye out for that and hopefully, um, I'm designing a second course around curriculum design that I'm hoping to release, uh, this year. So yeah, stay, stay, stay. Keep. Keep both. Keep tuned. Stay tuned.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes, stay tuned. How can people find you?
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Um, yes. So I'm very, I'm very easy to find. Um, I have a website that's blog some more.com (https://blogsomemoore.com/). I have a new website that's going to be released probably in the next few days. That's Dr. Shelley Moore.com. And, uh, so yeah, no, type in my name and I'll pop up somewhere.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Dr. Shelley Moore, thank you so much for being with us.
Dr. Shelley Moore:
Thank you. This was so fun.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify. You can also follow me, Diana on Instagram at Diana Pastora Carson and at facebook.com/go beyond awareness. Or go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. Links to my books and resources can be found at DianaPastoraCarson.com/store. For your free Beyond awareness resource called How to Talk About Disability with Kids, simply go to GoBeyondAwareness.com/talk. Podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes, intro and outro music provided courtesy of my son Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again. Be well, be a lifelong learner and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
