Diana:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here, you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, Disability Studies, disability, advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness. In the context of educating K through 12 communities, this podcast serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way. Moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go Beyond Awareness.
New Speaker:
I am so excited to have my dear friend and someone who I look up to and consider an expert in inclusive strategies for students. Her name is Shannen McKinney. Shannen, would you please introduce yourself to our audience? Who are you, why do you belong on this podcast and what are you passionate about?
Shannen:
Well, thanks so much Ms. Diana. I am so happy to be here with you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I am a program specialist in Chula Vista and the role of my or my role in school is essentially to go to classrooms where teachers and school teams are struggling with meeting the needs of their students. It could be that there's one little kiddo who might be giving the team some challenges, or it could be four or five students, especially given the current state of everything right now. But it's really my job to go in and assess the environment and look for what supports and strategies are currently in place and move in to sit with a team and to discuss potential strategies that we can either build on or supports that are already almost there, and just need to be built upon to really expand the accessibility of the classroom for the students that are struggling with accessing whatever it is that the teacher is preventing. So it's specific, my job, I would like to say it's supposed to be specific to autistic students, but now it's really expanded toa wide range of little individuals who are struggling with accessing their environment or the curriculum. What is my passion? My passion is access 100%. So I should be taking notes as we go through this.
Diana:
So access, you say access, access to what, what does that mean to you?
Shannen:
What does access mean to me? Wow, that is an awesome, awesome way to way to ask, put me on the spot there (laughter). Oh, wow. Access to me is the ability to participate in life and experience and learning to its fullest. And so access is very individualized. It's very much based on a person's experience, a person's skillset and the environment that that person is in and how well those match up. So, so if I go in and I see a student who is struggling to access, meaning struggling to participate to their fullest in a classroom, I say, what are the barriers? I like to say? I think it's a quote by, it might be an Einstein quote, and I apologize if this is wrong, but 95% of my time is spent on the problem and only 5% on the solution. So I like to call myself really good at finding problems and kind of good at finding some solutions.
Diana:
Wow. What do you see that right now with the pandemic and everything else happening in the world? What do you see are the main needs, or are there trends in what students need at this time?
Diana:
You know, from just a kind of, I think a more motherly perspective, what I'm seeing is a lot of students just needing that personal touch and connection. And it's something that I had always seen in the students that I went into support. While technically I don't support students. I support the teams that support the students. But what do I often see is a lack of connection, a lack of a relationship between the team and the child.
Diana:
You can get through anything if you have that connection.
Shannen:
Right? Agreed, agreed. So, so much of it is looking at what is that barrier to, to the, the staff, the adults, and the child? What is preventing them from having a relationship? Right? And sometimes it really, it doesn't even have anything to do with the child. A lot of times it doesn't have anything to do with the child. There may be frustrations with, especially with teachers who have historically been very successful. They have all the numbers, they, they meet their quota. They're the teacher of the years, that, that style, that teacher, where you walk in and it's like, wow, your classroom is beautiful and magical. And it has every bell and whistle you'd want. And, and that has worked for them for so long that when I go in and I go, maybe this isn't the bells and the whistles that this little friend needs. Right. And so I think it, I think sometimes it becomes personal when it shouldn't because if everything I've done for so long has worked with pretty much everyone. And now there's this child here who is, who's not responding. So it's, it's that kind of, I think it's, I think might be self-preservation where it's like, well, it must be the child and not me. Right?
Diana:
That is so good. Shannen. That is so good. And so what, what do you think the teacher, well, how can we, how can we address a teacher eho's an amazing, extraordinary human being and teacher who might be taking this to heart, who might be taking it personally. How can we support that teacher too? And how do you support teachers to be able to come to an understanding that it's really not about them and that inclusion and access necessarily includes us taking a step back and reevaluating what works for different students?
Diana:
You know, that's the million dollar question, Diana. And well, what I can say is I've had a series of successes and failures with respect to this. But with each failure, I've definitely learned a little bit of something about, I think this area in particular on helping our teachers to see that. Because when I say it's, it's not about you, right. The teacher, they know it's not that they don't know, there's something much deeper here that's going on. And I think it's really rooted in fear. It's rooted in a fear of failure. And so it's like, how do we then connect with each teacher? Well, I had to reset my brain from thinking teachers all have the same training. Teachers have similar experiences. Teachers have this, that, and the other, no, every teacher's an individual, just like every one of our students is an individual. So I have to look at each teacher that I work with as that unique person who has their own set of, of learning history own set of biases and prejudices, and experiences that bring them to that point, to that moment. And so it's really about kind of doing a little individualized plan for each adult that I work with. For the longest time, I just had this expectation that adults should all do X, Y, and Z. And I was like, wait a second. We're all learners. We're all learners.
Diana:
Yeah. And just like the connection, the relationship between the teacher and the student is critical. I'm assuming that the relationship that you have with the teachers that you support and the teams that you support iscan be precarious. When you come in, as you know, you are naturally an advocate for children and at the same time, your job is to support the team in supporting the child. And so I know that must be really hard when there is pushback from the educator. So what are some, for those who are listening, who might be that teacher of the year, who might be that teacher with the most beautiful classroom, you know, it's like going to Disneyland for the kiddos when they walk in, what are some concrete things that you have recommended in order to support a child who needed a change? Like what might have been, I know it's very individual based on student needs, right? But what are some examples of some things that teachers have had to take a step back and do in order to ensure access for all of their students?
Shannen:
I'm actually so happy you asked me that question because I've spent almost two decades in education and over half of that has been in the role of either a resource specialist or an autism specialist, and now a program specialist. So when I have, when I look back onto my history of supporting teachers, and there is truly one strategy for lack of a better word, that I think is, has almost always been missing when I go into the classroom. And that has been the time that the teacher and the child spend together in a, in a positive interaction, just the two of them, just enjoying each other's company, just building a relationship. And it may seem like, what are you talking about, Shannen? That's not a strategy, but honestly, I, what I do is I will literally take data on the amount of interactions that this adult has with this child.
Shannen:
And I'll document the type of interactions. And it's a lot of redirection and it's often a lot of time that's spent. And that's what I hear from the teachers. This child is taking up so much of my time, right? And the rest of my class is missing out because of it. And so it's really helping them like kind of rethink how they spend time with this child. And if we can spend some real specific, like a specific time with the child I'm missing the word that I'm looking for, but be more judicious with the time that we spend. So instead of it just being a lot of following, chasing, redirecting, instructing, worrying, talking about, I say, can you find five minutes? Can you find 10 minutes to put into this child's schedule that the two of you will just be together and you'll engage in some child led activities. So it may be that the child loves to sit and read a particular book or put together a puzzle, or watch a little video together, whatever it is, it's hey, I want to be with you, just you. And I want to do something with you that you enjoy. It could be sitting there. It could be spinning some wheels on the bottom of a toy truck. But as long as you're engaging in that shared enjoyment with that child, you are laying the foundation for change.
Diana:
That is so good.
Shannen:
Yes, that's my favorite. And that one is by and large missing, because like I said, the teachers are just so overwhelmed with, you want me to give this kid more time? Right? Do you want me to do what? And I say, no, I don't want you to give more time. I just want you to use that time that you're already giving this kiddo in a way that's going to lead to just this, the world opening to this child.
Diana:
Yeah. Yeah. You're front-loading trust. You're, front-loading love. You're front-loading that relationship. Yeah. I have a quick story about that. You know, we, we both know a kiddo from our school who was in my kindergarten class for two years in a row. And then went on to graduate from sixth grade eventually. But when he was in my class, I remember doing that. That I needed to make sure that I connected with him every morning, that I gave him lots of positive interaction, lots of love. And at parent conferences, another student who was a very you know, very successful academically, behaviorally everything, student, the parents addressed this thing and said, our child isn't getting the same attention as the other child is in your classroom and it concerns us. Our son comes home and tells us that you spend more time with the other child.
Diana:
And I, my heart broke because, you know, these are young parents. They want the best for their child. And, and I said, look, here's, here's how it works. I love your child. And I love this other child. And I love all my students. And you know, if something, if somebody doesn't have an owie, we don't give them a bandaid right now, this other child needs a little bit of extra time. This child needs has an owie and needs a band-aid. And so I give it to them, but that doesn't mean that I don't love your child. And they were, they were okay with it. They were okay. And we did, we survived the year. We thrived that year and then sixth grade graduation comes. Okay. So that was kindergarten. Sixth grade graduation comes. They walk through those same parents, with their child, their son, I'm going to tear up. They walked through and they thanked me for that kindergarten year and thanked me. Their son was graduating with that other child and seeing how far they came. They came to tell me how much growth they had seen in that other child. And thanked me for the lesson that I taught them at that parent conference.
Diana:
You have to, and, and I know it's hard sometimes it's hard because you want to be quote unquote equitable, but equity sometimes means giving a little bit more attention to somebody who needs it at any given moment and giving them resources extra, or I won't even say extra, but the resources that they in particular need at any time to help them be successful.
Shannen:
Absolutely. On our team. We like to say everybody needs something. It's just not always the same thing. Right? And what a beautiful opportunity for the students in your class to have been taught compassion, to have been taught that everybody's not the same, but we do share a lot of things in common, right? And, and, and the fact that, that, that parent had the opportunity to have that interaction with their child and to learn like these are, these are the, I think the real, for lack of a word, like blessings of our job that often go unnoticed it's this what you do. You're specifically trying to have an impact on this child. Right. But as you're working with the team, as you're working with families, the impact really spreads out. And to many more people than just that individual student. And I want to be able to go in and say, if you can be a better teacher for this child, you'll be a better teacher for everyone. Right.
Diana:
Absolutely. Yes!
Shannen:
But I know that's not gonna not gonna win any sort of anyone's attention if I just go in full guns ablazin' like that. So my goal is that that's what I am told at the end of working with a teacher is not only do I feel like I'm a better teacher for this child, I feel like I'm better teacher for all of my students. Yes. When I hear that, oh, I say, my job here is done. And it happens. Sometimes, it happens sometimes. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that every, every case I go into, I have level of success. But I do think that I can go about my job with a rational compassion. I've tried to put that empathy on hold because my heart breaks just so, so intensely for the students, as well as for the teams. I no longer feel anger and frustration for the teams that I feel could just make the slightest changes. And it's like, that would make all the difference, because I understand that the root of what they're saying and their frustration really is that fear and anxiety of, I don't have the skills necessary here. Right?
Diana:
Yeah. What do you say to like, if your heart could talk to the heart of that, that person who's living in the fear of not having the skills necessary for a particular child? Like, what does your heart say to that person?
Shannen:
Oh, what would my heart, like to say ? So much, too much, probably nothing that would make any sort of sense. It has to do specifically with the human experience and just how essential it is that everyone that everyone's experience in this world, in this lifetime, has value. And beyond that, that somebody's baby.
Shannen:
Somebody's heart breaks every day for that baby. I have a 14 year old daughter and I love her dearly and we have a wonderful relationship, but every day, my heart breaks a little bit for her. Why? Because I'm a mom, I'm a whacky mom. That's always nervous about her. Right. That's always wondering, is she going to be okay? And so every child we work with is somebody's baby. And that mom, that dad, that grandmother, grandpa, that caregiver is concerned about them and their happiness and their well-being. I want to know that when I send my daughter to school, she's surrounded by people who care and want the best for her.
Diana:
Yeah. And for those who may not come from an ideal, in our mind, home environment where the families are struggling to be, the parents are struggling to be responsible parents, you know, even more so, wow. What a torch we carry. How much more does that child need us to be that strong adult in their life, that nurturing adult in their life.
Shannen:
Everyone deserves it. Everyone.
Diana:
Yeah. Well, that's who you are in the, in the, in my mind, in the lives of so many students. You, you carry that love immensely. Do you have any other words of wisdom for our listeners?
Diana:
Oh, oh, I wish, Diana, words of wisdom. You know, I, I wish I did, but I think at the root of it all, I have to believe that everyone is doing their best and that's how I get on in life. Right. That's how I can wake up in the morning. And so if I take that with me, when I go in to meet with a team, that everyone here is doing their best, it really helps me evaluate like where they are. And it's not that they're trying to isolate an individual or not include an individual. It's just a lagging skill. It's just a deficit. And so instructionally speaking, if I have someone I'm working with, with a lagging skill or a skill deficit who doesn't quite have the skill set necessary to do whatever task is at hand, then I can look at it from that instructional, from that teacher perspective and say, okay, I'll meet you here. And we'll go from there.
Diana:
Yeah. Here's your baseline. Let's set a goal.
Shannen:
Yeah. Yeah. And it really takes a lot of that emotionality out of it because I can be, I can experience things so intensely that it allows me to really tap into, like I said, it's, what is his name? Paul Bloom is the one who coined the phrase rational compassion. And, and I just, oh man, I cleave to that. So, so heartily because I said, yeah, yeah, I need to be able to be compassionate and in a rational way, because if I'm just emotional all the time, I'm not going to be able to make a difference.
Diana:
Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to unwind when you get home either.
Shannen:
No, no, no, no. And I'm going to be sitting there crying with my teams. Right? And, and somebody needs to be able to say, yeah, okay. We're all in agreement. Love is needed here. Let's take care of that. And now let's move forward. Let's take some real specific steps to make a difference here.
Diana:
That's beautiful. Shannen. Those were words of wisdom. Thank you.
Shannen:
Well, our relationship. I mean, I appreciate you so much, Diana, you came into my life at just the right time. And sometimes you feel like a very, very, very small fish swimming in a huge ocean when you're an advocate for students. And so meeting someone like you, that I could just sit and talk and, and have that person to just scream out every frustration with another great strategy, right?
Diana:
Yes. Yes. That's important. Yeah. That's also very important for our listeners. Do you, you know, seek out somebody who's a fellow advocate inclusionist somebody with a like-mind like heart so that you can share together and vent. Yes. Well, you've been that for me.
Shannen:
I like to joke that we have our mutual admiration society going on here.
Diana:
Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. Well, thank you so much, Shannon McKinney for being on the podcast today.
Shannen:
Thank you for having me Diana, have a beautiful day.
Diana:
You too. Bye.
Shannen:
Bye.
Diana:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness, Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me Diana on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
New Speaker:
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